What is a Boundary Violation?with Juliane Taylor Shore
Libby and Jules answer a listener who asks, "If boundaries are between you and you, then what is a boundary violation?" Jules also goes over her 6 steps to setting an external boundary.
Transcript
Jules:
I am the how lady? No, this is so true, because I hear people talking about, and they're great ideas, but then I'm like, wait a second, with my clients, with myself, with my friends, with my daughter. Like, wait a second, but how do I actually do the thing you're saying? And all of the different work that I do in the world is all about translating from. That's a great idea. To how are you actually going to step by step put this in practice.
Libby:
Today is part two of my conversation with Julianne Taylor Shore, if you haven't listened to part one yet this one actually works as a standalone, but I do recommend you listen to the other one. Part one, which was last week. In this episode, we go into a listener question that I got asking me, what is a boundary violation? If boundaries are just between you and you, how does someone violate your boundaries? And how does that work? It was a really great question, and we explored it together. And then Jules generously walked through the six steps to setting a boundary that she outlines in her new book, which by the way, I'll just say one more time, go get it. It's great. It's an easy read. I highly recommend it. You can get it anywhere books are sold. I'm really excited to share this conversation with you. And so without further ado, here we go.
Libby:
Jules, thanks for coming back.
Jules:
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me
Libby:
For part two. So I wanted to bring you back because for two reasons. First of all, I got a very interesting question on boundaries from a listener, and I wanted to talk about it with you. . , and get your thoughts. But also because you, you are such a practice-oriented professional, and that your, your book is full of practices. And by the way, I just got it in the mail and I've read half of it, and I love it.
Jules:
Thanks Libby. <Laugh>.
Libby:
Uh but I thought maybe if you were willing, we could give our listeners, give my listeners a taste of some of what you mean when you say like, this is actually how you set a boundary, not just like understanding why you can, and understanding what one could look like. But like how
Jules:
I'm the how lady. No, this is so true. Because I hear people talking about, and they're great ideas, but then I'm like, wait a second, with my clients, with myself, with my friends, with my daughter. Like, wait a second, but how do I actually do the thing you're saying? And all of the different work that I do in the world, it's all about translating from That's a great idea. To how are you actually going to step by step put this in practice?
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and I think that's so important because I know for me, a, a thing that I've observed and also experienced is that it, once you feel like you can say no, like, like, . a lot of boundary work is, you know, keeping things out that don't belong to you or not doing things that you don't wanna do. . , you know, really not, you know, not forcing yourself to allow things that are not okay for you. Right? . .
Jules:
Yeah.
Libby:
What I've noticed is that sometimes when people realize they can say no, what they feel like they have to do then is to do it harshly. Yeah. And then it feels terrible and it feels not good. And then, and it's, it's a
Jules:
Out of alignment with your integrity. Yeah. And then you're like, wait a second, this feels like crap, but we don't know another way.
Libby:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, and, and so then they back off of the boundary and then, and you know, or they back off of the relationship. And so it's like, . , you know, there's this idea of like, how do I set a boundary, but also like keep the relationship is kind of where I want it to want it to go. . .
Jules:
Yes. I love that. Yeah. All my boundaries are all about actually bringing us closer together. Yeah. Not pushing us further apart. <Laugh>.
Libby:
Well, no, wait, say more about that. Yeah.
Jules:
So what I care about when it comes to closeness is you don't get to be to be close and not protected.
Libby:
Yeah.
Jules:
And so when I say, oh, a boundary's gonna bring us closer together, I think about, oh, a boundary around this thing is gonna make it more okay for me to spend more time with you,
Libby:
Because then I'm not worried that you're just gonna, I, I I'm, that I'm gonna have to just be so, so vulnerable that like, whatever, if you're having a bad day, right. That, that, that's gonna go right into me. Right. Up my day if I know what happens when you have a bad day. <Laugh>. Right, right.
Jules:
<Laugh>. And it could be, it could be around things like, I'm thinking about a client actually that I was working with who . was struggling because their, their partner was longing to have a work world that has these big moments of kind of hyper work. And for my client, that felt really hard. It felt hard for the family. It felt hard for the, for their feeling like they weren't chosen in the relationship. Oh.
Libby:
.
Jules:
And so actually setting boundaries around how much exposure the kids, and this, the, my client had to those was a really important part of the, of the boundary setting. Right. And so actually my client decided to start taking little trips with the kids when the hyper work mode would happen. And it got to be a fun, exciting Yeah. Lovely close experience. And then when they got back, the partner was out of the hyper work mode . and celebrating what happened over the weekend with you and the kids. And what what ended up happening was closeness was more present between the two partners. . , because . , the partner wasn't ruminating, resenting, why are you up at three in the morning instead of in bed with me? Right. And doing this work thing that wasn't happening anymore. And so now we're just celebrating coming back together and haven't we been on these two separate adventures?
Libby:
Ooh, yeah. Yeah.
Jules:
Instead of in Yeah. Instead of
Libby:
Sitting in resentment,
Jules:
Instead of sitting in resentment. And now I can't, can't stand you. Yeah. And that's gonna push us.
Libby:
And then that dynamic being something that the family is absorbing. Yeah.
Jules:
Right. Exactly. So what I would suggest there is my client took on protecting themself from that exposure so that they would not build that resentment so that they would not want to reject the partner.
Libby:
That's such a good example. There's another example that's coming to my mind. But I wanna pause here. . , because I want, I think this is gonna go into our listener question a little bit. Okay. So the listener question is about an episode that I did two weeks ago. . called Boundaries aren't Magic. And the listener says, I admit, I'm confused. I may be misunderstanding, but an implicit part of the message that I get from that episode seems to be that it is basically impossible for someone other than you to violate your boundaries since they are, as you say, between you and you, or at the very least, that we have absolutely no responsibility to avoid doing that further. It seems to me that there is perhaps not much of a point in communicating your boundaries to other people only requests that stem from them. I would be very happy if you could clarify this, and I should add the subject of the message was, what is a boundary violation? Mm. And I just find this question very interesting. It's a really good question. . and I have thoughts. Yes. But I wanted to know,
Jules:
Well, you, you use, you use different vocabulary that I think is really, really helpful.
Libby:
Yeah. So one of the things that this listener said in here is that there's no responsibility to avoid violating someone else's boundary. And that is so interesting because I think the answer is yes and no. Hmm. I think it's yes and no. I think it is not my responsibility to hold other people's boundaries for them. What I do think is my responsibility is to check and see what's okay and not okay for them.
Jules:
Right. And I think it's a question for your own integrity. This isn't a que I think this is such an individual question is Oh, it's a question of respect.
Libby:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jules:
How much do I respect other people? How much do I wanna be kind to other people?
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and sometimes like, there's that tension of . , how much do I respect you? And how much do I need what I need? . , you know gosh, I wanna come up with a good example of this. Oh, here's a good example. So my husband, he has an auditory processing difficulty. . I don't like calling it a disorder. It's a difference. . difference difference where for him, two people talking on top of each other is like nightmare for his brain. Hmm. Absolute nightmare for his brain. And I think if he could possibly humanly set a boundary that he doesn't ever have to experience that that would be great for him. <Laugh>. But that's
Jules:
Not possible. I dunno if that's a thing. Yeah. That,
Libby:
That's not possible.
Jules:
Yeah, yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. For human beings. . to do that. But, but honestly, it truly is like really disruptive to him.
Jules:
. .
Libby:
And, and he could say, like, at the table, I have a boundary that if people are talking on top of each other, I'm gonna get up and, chalk away from the table. Or, you know, if, if it's about wanting us to not talk on top of each other, then that would be a request.
Jules:
Right.
Libby:
Uh and the thing is, it's a reasonable request and sometimes we can't do it.
Jules:
.
Libby:
It's like sometimes we just legit can't do it. I, we have five people in our household. People's ideas are just bouncing all over the place. And sometimes there's just, and like I was raised in a collaborative overlap kind of family. One of my partners was too, my kids have a difficulty with impulse control sometimes.
Libby:
Sure. So it's just gonna happen. It's just gonna happen. And if someone were to say, if I do that, that I'm violating my partner's boundary, it's <laugh>. Well, 'cause I did something that he didn't like, no, it's, no, I'm not violating his boundary. . , I may not be being as kind and respectful as I can be because . it is kinder to him to notice, Hey, this is something that is really uncomfortable for you that you don't like. But, but where I would go, like it is a, a violation of like, someone's sanctity of their space is, is to touch them without permission. Right. You know, to touch someone with like, to, if I just went and grabbed someone and hugged them without checking to see if that was something they wanted, checking to see if they're ready for that. . , then that I would consider like violating their personal space. You could even say violating their boundaries. But I like using the word violating consent. 'cause I didn't check, I just didn't check.
Jules:
I love this vocabulary. Can we like super highlight, I wanna draw a yellow highlighter around this <laugh> consent violation.
Libby:
Right. Well, 'cause there's some things because, 'cause when I think of consent, I am taking something from someone else. I am, I am imposing myself upon someone else rather than just existing in them maybe. . not enjoying my existence in some way. You know? So like, if I'm in a shared space with my husband and I interrupt somebody, or I interrupt him, and he has to experience that, ah, . , like, neither of us have a right to the air <laugh>, you know, <laugh>. Like, he has as much of a right to want, not overlap. And I have as much of a right to want overlap. And so there's nobody who just like wins there. But in terms of my husband's bodily autonomy. . , that's his, that belongs to him. I don't get to touch him without asking.
Jules:
Right.
Libby:
Or, you know, having a pre agreement around how that is Okay. How
Jules:
That looks. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So I would say there's, when that first question, what is a boundary violation? Yeah. Is there such a thing as a boundary violation? I would say, yeah. And I love your language around it. It's a consent violation.
Libby:
.
Jules:
And so you could do that in a physical way, like you're talking about. You could do that in a mind changing sort of way. <Laugh>. Oh yeah. Right? . . So if you want someone and try to get them to feel and think differently than they do <laugh>, I would say that feels like a boundary violation to me. It's
Libby:
Intrusive.
Jules:
It's intrusive. . So this is really a question of what's my responsibility when it comes to being with other people and not being boundary violating or consent violating, I would say it's just comes back to a question of respect and kindness.
Libby:
Although, oh, this is, we're gonna get in the we here for just, I love it. I just,
Jules:
I love weeds.
Libby:
Well, yeah. I know you do <laugh>. Oh. And I'm just wondering like, 'cause you say that like, it's not okay or it's, it's, it's intrusive to try to get someone to think or feel differently than how they do. But then where does that, where does trying to influence someone come in like, I love this, you know, I really want Chinese food tonight. You're saying you want pizza. Ooh, could I convince you? . to just go get Chinese with me. Like, it's, it is, should we never convince anybody of anything Oh. Or try to,
Jules:
Oh, no. I think this is great.
Jules:
Anyone? <laugh>.
Jules:
I want us to own both sides of it. I'm a both hand thinker, so I love influence and no control. And I think the difference for me is saying, yeah, I have influence in the world and I'll use my voice or, you know, use the way I show up in this world to attempt to influence people. I wrote a book.
Libby:
<Laugh>. Yeah. You wanna influence people.
Jules:
I wanna influence. I am attempting to put a thought out in the world. I hope it influences some folks. . , I actually do. Of course. And that's very different than the energy of, I need to get you to think like me, for me to be okay. Right. I need to get you to agree to this thing for us to be able to be connected. So I think there's a difference in intention and willingness to be in the weeds with somebody and to have, well, one of you wants pizza and one of you wants Chinese food tonight. Somebody is going to be disappointed or in some manner. Yeah. Right. . either you're gonna be disappointed around not getting the food you want, or you're gonna be disappointed about not eating the same meal, or you're gonna, we're not gonna be able to avoid the disappointment on this one <laugh>. Right. So I think there's, there's some space where, Hmm. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's about how we're doing it and what our intention is.
Libby:
Well, I think actually now that I'm listening to you talk, it goes back to consent. . Right. Like, so consent. I like to use the fries model of consent. So consent is freely given, reversible, enthusiastic informed and specific, you know. . I, I, . reverse the I and the E, but that's okay. And so like, when I'm thinking about like, when you're trying to persuade someone, you can't use coercive. Right. You know, it has to be freely given. Like you need to give them the freedom to say no. . , if no is not on the table, and, and really there's high amount of consequences for saying no. . , then it's not. Then, then, then you are, I think, being intrusive and inappropriate. And the thing is, that can be so subtle, and I mean, it's <laugh>. .
Jules:
My question really is, is to make that U-turn. And when I say U-turn, I just mean turn inwards towards yourself. . , what is your true intention here? Yeah. Is your intention to invite them into a different way of thinking with you? Or is your intention to control their mind in some way? Is your intention to be coercive in some manner? Because you could use any tool in, in the book I wrote or any other one . out there. You can use it in a way that's controlling and cove, and you could use it in a way that's invitational and respectful and kind. Yeah. So I can't, you know, <laugh>, I cannot make some tool that's impossible to use badly <laugh>,
Libby:
That's not a thing. <Laugh>,
Jules:
That's not a thing. And I own that. That's not a thing. Yeah. That's just, yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I think maybe we've answered the question of like, we have no responsibility to avoid violating someone else's boundaries. I think we do absolute, we do
Jules:
Have
Libby:
Responsibility. . to check with ourselves, check our intentions, , and be with our integrity. . and honor and respect the other person. Show them care. Which might mean, I mean, and I really want everyone to hear this, actually. I think it's a very good practice actually, to check and see what someone else's boundaries might be. . instead of just waiting for them to voice them. . , I actually think it's a really good idea. Is it okay if I pay you a compliment? I say that all the time, actually. Yeah. Because some people don't like receiving compliments. Right. And just giving them the chance to say yes or no, even if the answer's yes. Gives them a chance to prepare. Yeah. I'm a big fan. Big fan. Yeah. But on the flip side, but the example you gave with that person and their partner who had the intense work time . . And then that one, that's not a vi, like there's no violating of boundaries happening there. Right. There's, there's, this person is choosing, I don't wanna be around this, this is causing me harm. I can't ask my person not to work . And not to go in their hyper work mode. Or maybe I have tried to work with that and tried to negotiate it. Right. And really, this is just what they need. And so then it's up to me,
Jules:
And this is really a great example because there had been a lot of requests and a lot of shifting actually from the other partner.
Libby:
.
Jules:
To make it less invasive to the family.
Libby:
Right, right.
Jules:
And the nature of their work. It j it is just true about how it's, it's just true. There were hyper work moments that really took them out of the family system for three to five days at a time.
Libby:
Yeah.
Jules:
And instead of doing 20 days at a time . , there had been a lot of shifting so that it wasn't 20 days at a time, it was down to three to five days
Libby:
A time <laugh>.
Jules:
Right.
Libby:
But for those three to to five days, they
Jules:
Really needed to
Libby:
Get outta there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Well, and I guess the thing that I wanna say to this listener is that I'm a big fan of direct request, actually. And in fact, I, I actually am gonna have an episode coming out in a few weeks about how I decide when to make a direct request, when to negotiate . and when to set a boundary. Because those are very different strategies of getting a need met. They're, they're, and but I'm a big fan. I kind of have a hierarchy actually. . Of like, I will always try request first. Yes. unless that just, I can tell already that's not available. . , you know or I don't wanna be in a back and forth negotiation . With that person, because I'm just not desiring of being that close with them. So I have a real hierarchy of how we do this. So I would say a lot of times, you're right, it isn't about a boundary. Yeah. It actually isn't. Most of the time it's not. Most of the time it's a request and then the person says yes or no to that request. And whether someone's gonna say yes or no to your request does impact how you feel about how much they care about you. . , you know, <laugh>.
Jules:
Yep. It can, that's where that psychological boundary can come in, and we can That's true. We can, we can do some thinking around, oh, well, how does that make sense for them? Their No. In a way that has maybe nothing to do with me.
Libby:
Oh, that's a good point.
Jules:
But I understand completely that getting a no can be painful and I'm not gonna ever be able to prevent that part. It's disappointing. Right.
Libby:
Well, well, right. And I guess in, in the example of like my husband, like, like you said, sometimes it's just, it's not a matter of I don't want to, or I don't care enough. It's that like, I literally sometimes cannot stop the thought from coming out of my mouth. Like, I work on it, we all work on it. The request has been made <laugh> but it just doesn't always it's not always possible. And so I feel like when it's not possible to have a request to be agreed to, or when it's just not in that realm. . , you know, when it really just does belong to me is when you would set a boundary and and then keep it, and I guess
Jules:
I'm with you on that, by The way. I'm like, yes, yes, yes. I don't start my relational care for myself with boundaries.
Libby:
Thank God. Oh my God, that would be so
Jules:
Awful. <Laugh> awful.
Libby:
Well,
Jules:
And and you don't need to do that.
Libby:
Right. Well, and, and the, the horrible thing is actually and I I, I wanna just say this because there are people in the polyamory spaces . Who say, oh no, I don't make agreements with my partners. I just have boundaries. And I was like, that sounds so, it just sounds so disconnected to me to operate that way. And, and I guess I wanna say that there are people where their relational comfort zone is in. Like, I don't actually wanna negotiate anything with anybody. I, that's actually, I just don't wanna do that. They, they're more on the solo-poly spec end of the spectrum, where they just don't have a lot of entanglements and they really want, they really are prioritizing freedom and autonomy. That's great. And so they just don't wanna be in that messy negotiating, making a request, having to deal with it when that request is agreed to, and then not done all of that stuff. . , I just wanna deal with that. And it's just, I just wanna say like, that is not the only way <laugh> to do it. And I wouldn't even say it's, it's completely not right for me. So
Jules:
Yeah. I can totally celebrate that for folks who want that. And just be clear with yourself and clear with the people you're with about that. And that's great. Yay. And a lot of people want more entanglement than that,
Libby:
Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, because boundaries are great, but they, there are limits. They, they, they can't <laugh> they can't do everything.
Jules:
They won't do everything. No. And I, I love, I'm more of a direct request negotiation. Do all of that first, and then if there's still something going on that's not okay for you and you need protection, then it's time to figure out what action you're gonna take to do something that is actually protective for you.
Libby:
Yes. And this is where I want us to talk about a practice. Yeah. So, Jules, how do I do that? <Laugh>, right? How, how, how, how, how, how,
Jules:
I have six steps for you, <laugh>,
Libby:
You just said magic words, six steps. That's
Jules:
Great. Six steps. So I'm gonna list them all. Boom, boom, boom. And then we'll go over 'em a little bit more in depth. Okay. Okay. So one, find your big why. Two, figure out how you're gonna actually say it. Three, anticipate potential responses. Four, anticipate your response to those responses. Five, create a plan for greeting yourself. Well, whenever your feelings are coming up. And six, keep with the boundary. You originally said, Ooh, so step one big, why? So this is, you know what? Boundaries are hard to set. So you better have a reason to do so that is, has enough emotional oomph that it'll carry you back, carry you through. . , right? . , this thing.
Libby:
And, and I've, I've got a good example here. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm wondering if we can this I love it.
Jules:
Let's do
Libby:
It. So my example is from my own past, . with one of my partners. I did not get along with their other partner. This would be called a Metamore. I didn't get along with my Metamore. Yeah. She and I just, we really struggled to communicate. We really struggled to get along. And she had a lot of jealousy around my relationship with her partner. . and, and a lot of other stuff. It was just very messy. And I had a lot of stuff with her too. It was not . . It was not a one way thing. . And we had tried direct communication. I had tried a lot of direct requests, and at a certain point I had actually gotten the message. I don't actually wanna communicate with you directly about anything.
Libby:
Like, I'll interact with you in shared spaces, whatever. But I don't wanna communicate with you about anything. If you don't like something I did, I don't wanna hear about it and I'm not gonna work it out with you. Like, that was very clearly communicated to me. Yeah. And and then any attempts by me to do that was not only, not only made her upset. So she was attempting to set a boundary with me. Please don't communicate with me. Mm . But in a, let me tell you what behavior I want from you, you know, which is actually a request that is actually a request that was actually a request <laugh>. Right. Which, you know I was told by her and by my partner, like, this request is really like, really, please keep this request. And I was like, okay, I can keep that request. That's fine. But then what do I do when we're in a shared space and she says something really shitty and it hurts my feelings? . . And I can't say, Hey, that was really shitty. That hurt my feelings. Can we make that better? Not available.
Jules:
Not available. Whew. Yeah. Yeah. So first, why, what is a big reason why you would like to be doing this differently?
Libby:
Hmm. Well, I don't want to, I don't wanna be in a not good relation with her. Like, I know that we can't be friends. That's obviously not available, but I don't wanna be pissed at her. Ah. And I don't want to then have that leak over into my beautiful relationship with my partner. Oh. It feels really important that our relationship, like, isn't like, disrupted and, you know, racked by this . friction between her and I, I don't want that. And she doesn't want that either, you know? Right. And so her attempt is like, I don't want any contact. . for me, that feels bad. But yeah. So I wanna figure out my why would be Yeah. I want my relationship with my partner to feel good, and I don't wanna be mad at her.
Jules:
Yeah. And those Exactly. So it, if you let yourself feel that, like, oh yeah, I do not wanna live pissed.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. I do
Jules:
Not wanna live pissed. Yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. I, I like, I have, you know, respect for her and . desire for care for her. . and Yeah.
Jules:
You know, and, and I do not want any of, any of that pissed that I have been dealing with to affect my beautiful relationship with my partner.
Libby:
Exactly. Right.
Jules:
So those, do those feel mfy enough for you? Yeah.
Libby:
Okay.
Jules:
Yeah. Great. Two, what is the not okay thing, but this is our action step. What is the not okay thing? Like, for example, she says something in a shared space. And then you don't get to work it out with her. Right. You don't get to say anything to her. She's actually asked that, and you've actually agreed to it, which you may change your mind on that, but at this moment, you've agreed to it. Okay. So what do you actually wanna do to protect yourself in that kind of situation? What is okay to do for
Libby:
You? This is so hard, right? . , because it has to be something that I do. Yes. It can't be something that she does I can't make.
Jules:
That would be a direct working out with me. Be, that would be a direct request. You can ask. But it sounds like that's a enough, she's a enough,
Libby:
She's enough <laugh>. So she can't work it out with me. She can't not be who she is. And sometimes she says things that are upsetting to me or do does things that are upsetting to me. I think then that means like, I have to minimize my interactions with her. Okay. Because if I can't, if I don't have a way to not, if I don't have a way to work it out with her, and I don't have a way to not be hurt, if something that she says hurts me, then I think I have to avoid the experience of her saying something hurtful to me, like that would be protective both of us actually. It would protect her from hurting me and it would protect me from being hurt. Yeah.
Jules:
Yeah. Okay. Good. And so would this be like a change in how often you're in shared spaces with her?
Libby:
Oh, no. I think just not at all.
Jules:
Not at all. Gotcha. Not at all. So you would actually choose then to not go to the events where there's shared spaces?
Libby:
Yeah. I would not go, I would not go if she was gonna be there.
Jules:
Gotcha. So do you need anything from your partner around that?
Libby:
Yeah. I think because they live together, right? Or they did at the time you know, this is this is an old,
Jules:
This this years ago. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. .
Libby:
But they were living together and so I wouldn't go to their house if she was there.
Jules:
Got it.
Libby:
Um and then, yeah, I wouldn't go to a party with him if she was there. I think I could be at a party, not with him if she was there but I think if he was there and she was there, then I don't think I would wanna be there.
Jules:
. . So you, you maybe need as part of this boundary to make a direct request from your partner to warn you about where she's gonna be.
Libby:
Yeah, that's right. And and also he would need to, I mean, really the boundary would most need to be expressed with him because it would be a change in expectation. Because previously we were kind of switching off spending time at each other's houses. And I, I would basically be saying, I'll only be at your house if she's not there.
Jules:
Right.
Libby:
Which she's there a lot. Frequently enough. And, and, you know. So I would just be at his house a whole lot less.
Jules:
Right. So this would be a, a boundary you're gonna set with your partner Yeah. Where you're saying, it's okay with me that we have this poly relationship, it's okay with me that you're with this partner, it's not okay with me to be able to share space with her and not be able to communicate with her.
Libby:
Right.
Jules:
So what I'd like to do instead is not be in spaces, like, not go over to the house when she's there. Not go to parties where you're both there.
Libby:
Right.
Jules:
Yeah.
Libby:
Yeah, yeah.
Jules:
Okay.
Libby:
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
Jules:
Does that feel okay to say
Libby:
Yeah. Do the party? Yeah. I think, yeah. I mean, I'm, yeah. I'm already jumping edge to the next step because I'm like, I know, I, I'm thinking about what he would say or what he would do, or how he would respond. That feels really, that feels really right and doable it's a little uncomfortable. 'cause It feels a little mean, I guess. Like, it feels a little harsh. Like, I just don't wanna be around her. But also, even as I'm imagining it, like I feel calmer. Yeah.
Jules:
Yeah. Yeah.
Libby:
. . Yeah.
Jules:
It's just a, Hey, it's not okay with me to share space with somebody if I can't communicate to them when things are hard.
Libby:
And that just feels so clear to me. Yeah. Like, that just feels so clear to me. Like, if I can't,
Jules:
If I can't do this
Libby:
Yeah.
Jules:
Then I can't, I can't pretend you can't be around that we're in a relationship when we're not <laugh>, basically.
Libby:
Yeah. Right. Exactly. That's it. Yeah.
Jules:
Right. So then you got to step three immediately, which by the way, happens for everybody. The second we even anticipate what we're gonna say, we worry instantly about how the other person's gonna respond. Exactly. That's common. So how might the other person respond? How might your partner respond when you made this really clear?
Libby:
What I'm imagining is he would agree that that's a good idea actually I think he'd be disappointed. I think we're, it's gonna get uncomfortable is not when the first time that I communicated with him but probably there's going to be a moment when you're gonna have to speak. We wanna be together to Yeah. . When we wanna be together, and then she is gonna disrupt that in some way. And so we're not gonna get to see each other. Because I'll have to say no to the invitation because I don't wanna interact with her. Okay. And what,
Jules:
And
Libby:
That's gonna be hard for me too. Ooh.
Jules:
Yeah. Oof. That's what, now go back to your big why every moment. Right. That's why we have our big why set first . , right? . . Go back and greet that with yep. This is hard. And also, I don't wanna lift off, but I won't
Libby:
Be at her if I don't go.
Jules:
I don't wanna lift off. I wanna protect my partnership. . , right? . . Yeah. And then in that moment when you had to stick to this thing, what would he do or feel that would be so hard for you?
Libby:
Oh, I mean, it would just be his face, honestly. Like, he just, he might get a little down. Yeah. you know, he's, he's actually like a person who really doesn't push, isn't like a boundary pushing type person. . And I think that's actually, like, I actually think he needs to do more pushback in person sometimes <laugh>, but but, but still, like I can . , you know, see, I think I would see the disappointment. Yeah. And I would wanna fix it, and then
Jules:
Perfect. Okay. Great. Look, you jumped to step four. Exactly. <laugh>. So here's that. Wanna fix it. Energy <laugh>.
Libby:
Right.
Jules:
And, and that wanna fix it energy. Is it in your body? Is it the thought? Is it a feeling?
Libby:
Yeah. It's, yeah. I mean, I feel it in my chest. And like, I feel this like leaning forward, like, oh, I wanna care for you. I wanna make it all better. You know? And if
Jules:
You followed through with that feeling, what would that feeling have you do next? Would it, have you agreed to go somewhere you shouldn't be going Yes. In order to take care of yourself? What, what do you do with that? Fix it feeling.
Libby:
I mean, I push myself. . , I'd push myself to be around her. Okay. When I wouldn't feel good. Okay. And I probably wouldn't, I'd probably feel kind of on edge Yeah. The whole time that I was doing that.
Jules:
Yeah. Well you just yeah. Did a thing that you had promised yourself you wouldn't
Libby:
Right.
Jules:
To take care of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So I get you broke your own consent there. Yeah. So I get why you have some tension, right? Yeah. Okay. So great. So feel that fix, fix-it energy. And now we're gonna move on to step five five. How are you gonna greet that? Fix-It energy with enough kindness and enough containment that it does not drive your next move.
Libby:
Ooh. Okay. Am I gonna greet that fix itenergy? . . Uhmm. It's not my job to fix it.
Jules:
. .
Libby:
I can't fix it. I can't fix it. I can't fix, I can't fix it. I can't fix it. And it's not mine to fix. And what I really need to do is be compassionate with me. . that I can't fix it. And then also compassionate with him because I know that's painful. That's painful. Of course. This
Jules:
Is hard. This is hard for you. This is hard for him. This is hard all around. Yeah.
Libby:
So I think, you know, it's interesting what's coming up. It's
Jules:
A hard
Libby:
Situation. Yeah. Well, what's coming up is like, I want to just, instead of trying to fix it, just show him like care in that moment. Yeah. I think that that feels soothing to me. 'cause It's not fixing it. . But at least it's not saying sucks to be you, you know, <laugh>. Yeah, totally. Instead, I kind of would just wanna be like, yeah, this is hard and I wish I could go and like, I wanna offer him some comfort while also holding my boundary.
Jules:
Yeah. This is hard. I wish I could go. Yeah. I really know. It's not the best thing for me.
Libby:
Yeah. And I have, think I also have to re remind myself that I'm not being unreasonable or harsh or mean, like I'm not being That's
Jules:
Right.
Libby:
I'm not being . overly rigid, you know? Yeah. I think that like, or you know, or I'm not, or it's not a power play that's not, it's not anything like that. You know? It's not Yeah. I think it's not mean.
Jules:
Exactly. So remind yourself of your big why. Yeah. So a lot of times in step five folks remind themselves of their big why. Yeah. Sometimes if something they discovered in step two, like we're gonna do right now. So you greet that, fix it energy with compassion. .
Libby:
. .
Jules:
. And of course this is hard all around.
Libby:
Yeah. And she's gonna probably feel bad too. Interestingly enough. I'm sure. Like at least I'm imagining that, you know, I won't see it. I won't hear it, but I'm making up that, that like, he might be mad at her. Mm. And then she's gonna feel bad because I'm not showing up and that I'm gonna create tension in their relationship. Oof. And I think I just need to say, that's doesn't belong to me.
Jules:
Right.
Libby:
Doesn't belong to me. And, and if somebody, because I mean the thing, I guess now that I'm thinking about it more, it's like, oh, is that gonna be received as like a punishment, you know, is, you know, because she doesn't wanna interact with me.
Jules:
Well, it may be, it may not. Yeah. My question is not that, actually my question is, are you doing this to punish her? Are you doing this to punish him?
Libby:
Not at all. Not at all. You
Jules:
Cannot help how they receive that.
Libby:
Yeah, that's true. So
Jules:
I just need to tell myself they may say it's a punishment, but are you doing it as a punishment? That's my question. No. Nope. No. Okay. So
Libby:
Absolutely not.
Jules:
The fix it energy needs a little compassion reminder. This is not a punishment. This is Nope. And you're doing it to protect yourself from anger. Yes. You're doing it to protect your partnership. . And you're doing it because, and this is what we learned in step two when we went through it for you . . Because for you, it is not actually possible to be in close relationship with someone and also not speak to them when things are hard.
Libby:
Yes. That's, that's
Jules:
Actually just not a possibility for you.
Libby:
It just doesn't work for me. No, you can do
Jules:
It. Right. That just doesn't fit in your, in your integrity and your relational wellbeing to do that. That's
Libby:
How I am <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. . Okay. So just kind of reminding myself like I'm staying in my own integrity of what it means to be in relationship.
Jules:
That's right.
Libby:
Yeah.
Jules:
Yeah. Yeah. And that may not match everybody else's idea of what it means to be in relationship and that's okay. . We don't have to control them for you to be okay.
Libby:
.
Jules:
. And then, whew. Now. . what would you say to your sweet partner in that moment where Yeah. You're both gonna be disappointed? 'cause You're gonna say no, I'm not gonna go.
Libby:
No, I'm not gonna come. I really wish I could. But this is what's right for me. Yeah. And I can't wait to see you the next time I see you. Yeah.
Jules:
How's that feel?
Libby:
It feels good. It feels good and
Jules:
Hard. Hard and good both things. Yeah.
Libby:
<Laugh>. Yeah. Well, because I mean, like, I might wanna go to the thing, you know, <laugh> Yeah.
Jules:
I'm saying yes to disappointment when I say yes to boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. People do not get this about boundaries. I think if you are going to set boundaries, you are going to experience more disappointment.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that's in part going back to what we were just saying about, it's so lovely to make a request and get a yes. . and then have that be a mutual thing. . and a boundary's not mutual. It's unilateral. Yeah. You're deciding for yourself, which means you don't get that mutuality. Right. And in fact, you might get like a, I don't love that boundary. I wish that boundary were different. I don't like, you know, so . , of course it's gonna feel disappointing if what you're trying to do is create closeness you know.
Jules:
Yeah.
Libby:
Oh. But just even I will tell you like, I set this boundary, this is the exactly point I did <laugh>. Yeah. And, and it was amazing. It was hard at first. . it was really hard at first. . because, because Yeah. A lot of times what was happening is I got less, a little less time with my partner. . I got a little less time because there were times when it just wasn't possible for me to see him without her around. Yeah. And so there was, and there was a shift in like, I, like, there it wasn't totally fair either because it meant that dates, if more dates were happening at my house, if we were at someone's house than at his, which just kind of wasn't fair. But in terms of it being equal, you know? . I guess it's fair in the sense that it was what we needed was appropriate. Yeah. But anyway yeah. But there was this sense of like equality that I was like noticing . But ultimately it really like deescalated all of the shit that had been going on.
Jules:
Oh, great.
Libby:
And we were able to focus on our relationship instead of on this . other situation that just wasn't working. But yeah, there was disappointment around like, 'cause what we really, I think all of us wanted was like this more kitchen table dynamic where we could all . do all kinds of stuff together. And instead I really had to just like, take care of myself and accept what was available and let go of what wasn't. But yeah. So it was, it was hard
Jules:
And worth it
Libby:
And totally worth it. Totally worth it. . And I mean, that relationship is now like, I'm mean, we're, we've been together seven years Yeah. At this point. Yeah. And I, I don't think our relationship could have survived if I hadn't set that boundary actually. Yeah.
Jules:
So this is what I mean, boundaries bring us into more connection. Yeah.
Libby:
<Laugh>. That's true. That's a good point. <Laugh>. Well, and, and to go back to the listener, like there's no way she could have violated that boundary.
Jules:
That's impossible.
Libby:
Like it was my boundary. There's
Jules:
No way your partner could have violated that
Libby:
Boundary. Yeah. If she was there, I would leave. That's it. . That's it. Yeah. now I could say, Hey, I'm gonna be at this thing. Please don't come. I can't control her. Yeah.
Jules:
That's the direct request. That's not a boundary. Exactly.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah,
Jules:
Yeah. Direct request. It's only a direct request if no is okay, <laugh>, if, if no is not okay, you just made a demand and you get to decide whether demands are okay with you or not. <Laugh>, I don't get to say that, but, but I know for me, demands are not a thing that I do <laugh>.
Libby:
Well, I mean, good luck with that. I mean, if you have somebody who is, if you're making demands of them and they're accepting them, I do think that, you know, there are times when maybe that will be okay. . But I think if that's the way you're operating your relationship, you might wear that out.
Jules:
Yeah, yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. Anyway.
Jules:
Exactly.
Libby:
Wow. So that's amazing, I think. Yay. I, I just, I wanna highlight the things that I think are amazing about the six steps that you outlined there. . That I think I don't hear a lot of people doing when they talk about boundaries. Like the, the, the most powerful thing, there's two steps in that that I think are the most powerful, which is anticipate what the other person is going to do and what you are going to feel about what they're going to do in response to your boundary. Because I think a lot of times maybe people like, you know, maybe in the subconscious part of them are anticipating . What's gonna happen, but they don't necessarily bring it forward and put it in front of them and say, okay, this is how they might respond and this is how I'm gonna feel. And then the second thing is like, and how am I gonna care for myself . so that I can keep the boundary. Yes.
Jules:
Yes.
Libby:
And I think a way a lot of people care for themselves is one of two ways. Either <laugh> without, if they don't consciously create a care plan for themselves. . they're gonna just put up a wall. Yes. Like they're gonna emotionally disconnect. . as a way of protecting themselves from whatever somebody might be feeling. <Laugh>. about their boundary. And then of course it does feel mean. Right. Then of course the boundary does feel mean and it feels disconnecting.
Jules:
It does Great connection and
Libby:
It does break connection <laugh>. Right,
Jules:
Right. The other thing we do is we fold. Right. Exactly.
Libby:
That was the second thing. The other thing is we fold and we don't keep it, and then we start to feel like our words are meaningless. Yeah. Because we've, we, we've made them. So
Jules:
Totally, and I'm thinking back in different moments in my life, you know, I, I write about boundaries because I need to work on boundaries. That's why we've, we do the things
Libby:
<Laugh>. Right.
Jules:
<Laugh>. But I think back, that was like my main way of dealing was the, that second one Yeah. Would fold. And what I would end up in is shame pit after shame, pit after shame pit. . where I feel like I failed myself and I was right. That I had failed myself. <Laugh>. Right. I had not done protection. I had given in and done whatever did not feel good to me.
Libby:
Right.
Jules:
Yeah. Yeah. And so that just swirl of unworthy shame sort of feeling was in me kind of constantly. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also didn't wanna be harsh. I didn't wanna wall off, so I wanted to figure out, so how could I do this a different way? Yeah. It doesn't just feel like harshness. But does feel like, is it possible maybe to, to say, say what isn't Okay. And stick to it.
Libby:
Right.
Jules:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and notice, yeah. We do all these six steps away from the situation.
Libby:
Yes.
Jules:
So that you're prepared for the situation once you actually do the thing.
Libby:
Yeah. It's beautiful. Yay. Thank you for sharing this with me. No joke. Y'all go by the book. It's not a very long book. It's a very quickly, it's actually, it's like, yeah. Short. It's a beautiful piece of work. And I just, I just, I, I love all of the practices in it and I just you know, if you're listening to this and you're a client of mine, you're gonna probably get one in the mail, <laugh>. Oh. . 'cause I just think it's a wonderful book. So go by the book. It comes out
Jules:
December one.
Libby:
It's actually out now on Amazon, I think. Yeah. Amazon released it early.
Jules:
Amazon released it early. It's a fancy thing. Amazon, I guess gets to do <laugh>. I don't know how that works, but if you, if you ordered it on Amazon, it's already in your mailbox, probably.
Libby:
Yeah. But you can also get it on bookshop.org or get it at your local bookstore, and if they don't have it, ask for it. <Laugh> <laugh>.
Jules:
Yes. Yes.
Jules:
Exactly. And December 1st is around the corner. Yeah. So
Libby:
Thanks Jules for coming back on my show. I'm so glad
Libby:
You're here in the world.
Jules:
<Laugh> <laugh>. You're very welcome. And thank you for having me back. And I just, lots of love to you.
Libby:
Thanks.
