Your Brain on Boundaries with Juliane Taylor Shore
Libby is joined by author and therapist Juliane Taylor Shore to talk about internal boundaries and how crucial they are (even though they are often not talked about or overlooked when people talk about boundaries.)
Transcript
Jules:
So I wanted to help people with boundaries, because boundaries add protection. And when you feel more protected and more in charge of how much protection is available to you, that's in your control, not somebody else's control, then your brain has lots more time and flexibility into that more integrated state. So that's kind of why I care about it so much.
Libby:
Today's episode, you are in for such a treat. I have a guest on my show, which as you know, I don't often have guests, but today I have the amazing Julianne Taylor Shore, also known as Jules. And I'm just gonna tell you a little bit about her before we get to hear from her. Jules is a therapist, she's an author, and she's a teacher. She's also my friend, my teacher, my mentor, kind of my hero in so many ways.
Libby:
And what she does is she creates spaces for folks who wanna face what's blocking them so that they can live lives full of self-trust, integrity, purpose, and connection. She's a neurobiologist and a trauma therapist, and just an incredible human. She teaches anyone who will listen about how to work with your brain to make shifts that stick and to create loving relationships with yourself and others. She wants us all to embrace our gifts and our mistakes so that we can harness the best in us to make a more creative, responsible and compassionate world. In this episode, we have an incredible conversation and I'm so excited to introduce her to you, and I hope you love her as much as I do.
Libby:
Hi, making polyamory work, listeners, I have such a treat for you today. Joining me today is the amazing Julianne Taylor Shore, also known as Jules. That's how I know her.
Jules:
Hi,
Libby:
And hi.
Jules:
Oh, gosh, I'm so excited.
Libby:
I'm really excited too. I'm excited to have a, an excuse to have you on my show.
Jules:
Oh, I love that.
Libby:
I've been, I've been thinking a long time, like, how do I get Jules on my show? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And here we are.
Jules:
And here we are. Yeah.
Jules:
Yeah. And, and what our listeners don't know is that I've known you since I think 2018.
Jules:
Yeah, I think so. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. I think so. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. We met at training in Boston.
Libby:
In Boston. That right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah,
Jules:
Yeah, yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. And I remember this because I was the only coach at this training. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I remember we were all tasked with standing up and introducing ourselves. And I stood up in the group and I introduced myself, hi, I am Libby, I'm a non-monogamy coach. I coach people in alternative relationship structures, dah, dah, dah, dah. You know, my little elevator speech. And I just felt like the, you know, the alien in the room, which is, you know, a thing that I often feel when I'm going to therapy trainings . Yep. . And, but you immediately came up to me, I remember at one of the lunch breaks or something, and you were like, by the way, I'm Jules and I work with people who are non-monogamous all the time, and it's so nice to meet another person who works with my people. You
Jules:
Know. Oh, yay.
Libby:
I love it. I remember. That's right. .
Jules:
Oh,
Libby:
But you are not non-monogamous. Yeah,
Jules:
I am not. No. Yeah. I married a man who really wants monogamy. Yeah. And I really wanted him. Yeah. So even though I'm, I tend actually naturally towards a little bit more flexible relationship structure because I really wanted him, and he really didn't, monogamy was a deal breaker frame.
Libby:
Yeah.
Jules:
And so I decided, yep, we are gonna be partnered then.
Libby:
Cool.
Jules:
Yeah.
Libby:
I love that.
Jules:
I've felt like the right decision. I've never, I, there are moments where I have some grief around the, that what do I mean, lack of flexibility, especially since I like women too. And so there's, there's like a little bit of fluidity but it also feels, so I have some grief around that, but not in a way that feels like, Ooh, I'm missing a part of myself. It's more just like, Ooh, that's sexy and awesome. Well, I'll just look from over here and admire your amazingness
Libby:
. So actually, I really appreciate you sharing that about yourself. Yeah. Because I actually didn't know that.
Jules:
Yeah. This is new information. Yeah. Yeah. I think of it like a, I have a flexibility in me where I could go either way. So it doesn't feel like if it had felt like really compromising myself, I don't think I could've done it. Sure. But for me, it's, I am in that more kind of middle ground space.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jules:
So making agreements and sticking to 'em was just felt. Right.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we do that all the time, don't we?
Jules:
We do. We do. No matter what our relationship structure.
Libby:
Well, I wanna, I wanna transition here because Yeah. Transition. I think I wanna talk about the fact that you have written a book I did. That is coming out in December.
Jules:
That's true.
Libby:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>
Jules:
December 1st.
Libby:
It's about boundaries.
Jules:
Yeah. I wrote a book about boundaries
Libby:
And why, why boundaries was the topic that you decided to write about.
Jules:
Well, because I want to help with brain integration. So here's something for people to know about me is I'm a little bit of a, a neuro nerd and how I came in . Yeah. And it's great. I'm kind of an extreme neuro nerd. . So I came into this work as a very big therapy skeptic actually, and didn't get it. Like, why are we talking about feelings? . And I was, I was just very anti therapy world. And I found a therapist, and it went really well in a way that felt pretty transformative for me. But then I, when I went to, that's why I decided to say yes to, oh, I'm gonna make a career change and do this job. And I went in and was listening to these classes, and I was just like, wait, what are we learning? What are we doing?
Jules:
And I was an auto mechanic at the time and turning wrenches during the day and going to grad school at night. And, and it just felt really weird to me that people were not talking about the brain in my grad school program in counseling grad school programs. And that's changing a little bit Now. I went to grad school a little bit ago, but not much, honestly. We're not listen, learning a lot about the brain. So I really wanted to get, just like, if I was working on a transmission, I would wanna know how a transmission works, right? Or, you know, if you're changing rotors on a brake system, you should kind of know how the brake system works, , things like that. Right? So I wanted to, probably helps . It probably helps. So I said, wait, you want me to help somebody with a brain, but you don't want me to know anything about how a brain works?
Jules:
That seems weird. So I went on deep dives outside of my grad school program to find it. So that's kind of how I became neuro nerd, and how I got into what, initially I would've called woo woo therapy. And my work is really highly experiential. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. It's it, I play with tons of like, embodied experience, and I do a ton of parts work. I do sand tray, I have people draw, we move in the room. So I got really into that because the neuros, the neurobiology I was studying really proves that, that's helpful. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So why boundaries? Because of brain integration. So brain integration is a fancy way of saying your neural networks all function simultaneously. How much do they talk to each other? Right? If they talk to each other a lot, that's a state that's on the more integrated space.
Jules:
And if they talk to each other a little bit less in that moment, your brain is a little bit less integrated. So put it on a dimmer, not a light switch. It's not either you are integrated or you are not integrated. It's not like that . It's more like, oh, more and less. And what I was noticing is that people were feeling more clear and trusting of themselves, and able to hold really hard stuff that was happening in their lives and make it through and feel proud and successful about how they handled hard moments when they had more flexibility in their integration system. And so I was thinking about like, well, yeah, but why does a brain integrate more? Or why does a brain integrate less? And the answer is, it's a, it's a perception of safety.
Libby:
Hmm.
Jules:
So, how protected I feel , how good I am at protecting myself, ie. Boundaries, , aha. How much do I trust me to add protection equals putting a little bit of my brain integration in my influence, in my control, and not only being dependent on the outside world to provide safe enough for me.
Libby:
Oh, okay. I wanna say this back, because I think you just said, like you said a mouthful, but it was amazing. I did . So you said, I just wanna, I just, I I gotta hold this. So Yeah. More integration equals I can cope with hard things better.
Jules:
Yes.
Libby:
Things better. I can hope with, I can cope with hard things better. I can deal with challenges. I can deal with uncertainty. I can deal with things that are hard. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the way that I can do that is by feeling safe.
Jules:
Right.
Libby:
I can access more integration when I feel safe.
Jules:
That's right. So the brain is the body's captive audience, and it's always wondering, how am I doing? Am I safe enough? And if the answer is no, it, it goes unintegrated in response to that, because that is faster.
Libby:
Yeah. And
Jules:
When we're unsafe, we don't have a
Libby:
Lot of time. That's like your time kneejerk reactions. Right, right, right. Exactly. It's like your first response. Exactly.
Jules:
Yeah. My first response. So if I learned growing up that I go, ha and it gets people's attention. And I think in this moment, my partner comes at me and they're not giving me attention, I might flip my lid a little bit and go, right at 'em. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,
Libby:
Because
Jules:
I didn't actually feel safe when they weren't giving me the attention I needed. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So this is this such a weird point, or it is. So it feels so nuanced. But I think it's really essential that we get this, you do not make your brain more or less integrated. You do not even make your brain more flexible as it moves up and down that dial of more and less flex, more and integrated and less integrated. What's happening is your brain is making a subconscious, incredibly rapid assessment of how protected am i.
Libby:
Right?
Jules:
And if the answer is a lot, I got this, then you get to have the more nuanced, slow, creative, relational
Libby:
Resilient.
Jules:
Resilient, yeah. Integrated space. That's awesome. At slow stuff. And I don't mean that less integrated is bad. I actually, I don't think that at all. I love less integrated brains. They will save your butt.
Libby:
Yeah. ,
Jules:
Please. If you are in actual danger, yay, unintegrated brain.
Libby:
You won't be thinking, oh, should I run away from the lion? You'll just,
Jules:
You're just gonna go. And then you'll feel scared later. Thank God, . Right. So I want that to happen. I just don't wanna have to have that happen if what is serving me even better would be a little bit more of a nuanced, flexible state. Right. So it's not even about like more integrated necessarily. It's more like, Ooh, how flexible can I be on that spectrum? And if I live in a place where in my world it is, okay, I am safe enough for more integration to be matching that external environment. 'cause Not everybody does. And I really wanna name that. And that
Libby:
That's very true.
Jules:
You know, that's very true. Want, we want folks, like, I'm even thinking about a family I worked with who was talking about finding the right preschool for their family as a poly family
Jules:
And wanting to make sure that their daughters were safe and wanting to make sure that they felt welcomed in the community. And can they find that, you know? Right. And what does that look like for them? 'cause Actually, they're not welcomed everywhere. Right. And actually it's is, it is kind of scary some places. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So I just wanna honor that you may need less integrated spaces 'cause you may actually be in danger. , right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And when it's possible that your reality actually could be totally handled by you, , do we want that slower space? So I wanted to help people with boundaries, because boundaries add protection. And when you feel more protected and more in charge of how much protection is available to you, that that's in your control, not somebody else's control, then your brain has lots more time and flexibility into that more integrated state. So that's kind of why I care about it so much. Plus, I grew up in spaces where boundaries were not always that great. And so it's my own work. And don't we all write about our own work? ? I mean, really , this is, this is my work. This is me trying to heal my brain.
Libby:
. Yeah. Well, I, well, and I just wanna really appreciate the, because when I think about what it takes to do something like non-monogamy, especially like to be in an alternative relationship style. And I say this often where you're, you're not because you don't have the external structure of like what cultural expectations are, what societal rituals are, you don't have all of that sort of holding you in. Which again, that can also be a reason to not want it in the first place. But there's a lot of like, holding and, and I think safety that is created and following norms. Yes. And, and also there's a lot of, like, I don't have to figure out so much. I can kind of just go along with what I'm being told. Totally. But when you have to figure it out yourself, I think that integrated brain state is probably the place where you're gonna have the easiest time making choices about, you know, for sure.
Libby:
Do I live with two partners? You know, or do I have children with multiple partners? Do I, I mean all these different sort of like, big decisions that are outside the norm where you have to really trust yourself Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and what's best for you and what's best for the other people. And you have to be in that collaborative space where Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you have to be willing to take someone's influence without it letting it swamp your own wants and needs. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So being able to hold those two things at once or three things, or five things at once. So all of that gets very complex. And if you're doing that from a place where you are in a place of unsafety Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. It's really hard,
Jules:
Actually. Impossible. Impossible. So less integrated states do not do complex. Right. Less integrated states are either or, or this is the only way it is, or this is the only option for me that is a less integrated state. Yeah. The complexity, the creativity, the multiple options that could meet a need, those are all gonna be supported in your more integrated, a little bit slower brain state. Right. And so I think it's really, really helpful for people to have a little bit more Mm. Influence agency. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> over their own their own safety, their own safety, their own sense of
Libby:
Safety, their feeling of protection. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah,
Jules:
Exactly.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and it's so interesting because boundaries are really hot right now. You know, a lot of people are talking about boundaries. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I feel like they're talking about boundaries in a way that actually makes me very itchy. . Okay.
Jules:
Yeah. Totally. I wanna
Libby:
Hear, can I share, can I share, share my itchiness with you? Mm-Hmm.
Jules:
<Affirmative>, I would love to hold your itchiness. .
Libby:
Well, I mean, because I, I love boundaries. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And in fact, years and years and years ago, I taught a workshop called Boundaries are Everything. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But the way that I taught it back then is I would disagree with myself now in some of the things that I taught Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, this was like almost a decade ago. But the way that I feel like people talk about boundaries a lot now is, you know, I will. Because it's all about my behavior. Right. It's all about it. It like, I am in control of me, and that's all I'm in control of. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so by deciding what I'm going to do and not gonna do, I can, can have more control over my overall environment, is kind of how I feel like it's being sold.
Jules:
I think that is exactly how it's being sold.
Libby:
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.
Jules:
And I do not believe that's a thing.
Libby:
I don't think it works like that. . Well, I think we,
Jules:
I think we influence our environment, but we don't get to control our environment.
Libby:
It's really appealing though. Right. It's a really appealing thing. Like, oh, as an example, this is one that comes up a lot is like my partner's doing something that I don't like. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I can't tell them not to do it because that's controlling. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you could make a request actually, but like, we'll, we'll get there. Yeah. Yeah. But in, but like in poly land, like good poly people don't tell their partners what to do. Don't get to control their partners. Mm-Hmm. Definitely don't get to control what their partners do with other people. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which is, I'm on board with all of that. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But what if my partner's doing something with someone else that is making me uncomfortable or that I don't like? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> what, what I've seen people do who are new to boundaries and are just now just starting to try to figure out how to, how to use them and have them support them. They'll say something like, well, I don't wanna be in a relationship with a partner who is having sleepovers with their other partners. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That's my boundary.
Jules:
That's my boundary.
Libby:
. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And therefore, if you wanna be in a relationship with me you can't do that.
Jules:
Right. Right. Yeah. That is basically what's happening.
Libby:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So maybe you can tell us what you think of that. Yeah. I
Jules:
Don't think about it like that . So, well, I think of boundaries in two different kind of big categories, external boundaries and internal boundaries. So external boundaries are the ones you probably are thinking of. Can I communicate what is and is not okay with me?
Libby:
Exactly.
Jules:
Can I act in accordance with that knowing? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And I think a lot of times when people ask me about it, they're asking me , well, the first, the first thing that happens usually is, how can I say this in a way where I get them to respect my boundaries, .
Libby:
Well, right. Or get them to do what I want them to do. Right. which I guess is the same thing. Right.
Jules:
It's, that's what we mean when we say get them to respect my boundaries. But I don't actually think that's a thing because I don't think boundaries are about getting somebody else to do anything.
Libby:
Exactly. Exactly. And yet, all the time we'll have people say, you know, well, I had a boundary around this and this person did the thing anyway. And I was like, well, well, yeah, you, 'cause you can't control other people's behavior. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you can only control your response to it. .
Jules:
Right, right. And, and so can we, if we need to make an agreement, let's have big discussions.
Libby:
Right, exactly. And figure
Jules:
Out agreements that work for everybody. For sure. I'm all about that. Well,
Libby:
And what a lot of people try to do, because they don't, because agreements, again, they require that integrated brain state. Yep. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they require collaboration. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they require people to really understand what is okay for them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then the other person to come and what's okay for them and Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> then for, for them to work that out together. Yeah. That's very vulnerable and can be very sticky. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think sometimes people try to circumvent that by instead creating something that they're gonna call a boundary. Right. And then they're gonna create a consequence from when that boundary is crossed.
Jules:
Yeah, totally. Totally. Totally. And boundaries have nothing to do with what other people do.
Libby:
Well. And what's so funny about that to me is that it is a unilateral decision that actually ends up looking a lot like Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> What is a big no-No in non-monogamy line, which are rules. Yeah. Which are, if you do this, then this. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But a lot of people are framing boundaries like that. Yes. Like, if you do this, then I will do this. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And the I will do, this is something you may not want, and so therefore I'm hoping that you'll not do. Right. Right.
Jules:
and I get that again. Why you're hoping very controlling, hoping. Yeah. Well, that's 'cause it is
Libby:
. That's,
Jules:
That's an accurate presumption. Well that's why I'm so interested in internal boundaries. So I also, yeah.
Libby:
So let's talk about internal
Jules:
Boundaries. I don't think it's possible to have good external boundaries if we don't have good internal boundaries. Or it's not, it's not possible. I don't wanna be that, you know, either or about it, but it's, it's like a, Hmm. It's really, really hard. It makes it hard. It makes 'em go not as well. And it, it, it's likely that you might act outside of your integrity if you don't have the internal kind. So internal boundaries, I think of them as psychological boundaries, which is the space between my mind and your mind. So I can be with you in any conversation we're having. As long as I know that your feelings and thoughts are not actually scary.
Libby:
Ooh, that's a tough one. What?
Jules:
I'm not saying no. All behaviors notice. Mm-Hmm. I'm not actually naming behaviors here. <Affirmative>, not all behaviors are okay. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But if,
Libby:
But thoughts and feelings,
Jules:
Thoughts and feelings are, are really yours. And you becoming you through time as you work towards goals and hopes and learn more about your existence and your history matches, mixes up mishmash with everything that's happening right now. So here I am bearing kind witness to you listening with full acceptance of whatever is happening for you. How could I do that? Well, I have to protect your mind from my mind, and I have to protect my mind from your mind. . So we add the protection between us and I call that a psychological boundary where it's okay for us to be completely different and still be in connection. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the containing boundary, and that's more between you and you. And that's about how do you create a pause between what you feel and what you do so that you can support yourself in making decisions, behaviors, how you talk that it matches your integrity and it matches your relational intentions.
Libby:
And, and I love what you say about like, sort of what is the filter that you use to decide whether you let something in your psychological boundary or whether you keep it out.
Jules:
Right. I call it discernment. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And what I mean is, is it true? Right. And is it about you? Exactly. And if it is both of those,
Libby:
Then it comes in,
Jules:
It comes in Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. If either one is a ah, I don't think so. Then it stays out and then that's now information about the person you're in relationship with in that moment, but it's not information about you. Yeah. And so you can grow your curiosity dependent, I guess, on how close you wanna be to that person. I mean, you might not wanna be close to all people. That is totally acceptable.
Libby:
. Yeah. Well, and I wanna, I wanna give an example of this because I think those can be really powerful. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that psychological boundary is one of these things that I teach over and over and over again. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> because of how important it is for people to understand that you can be having a really different experience of the same thing with someone you are deeply close to and in love with. And that is okay.
Jules:
In fact, I guarantee that is happening. Yeah. Way more than you think
Libby:
. But it's, it can, but it can also be painful, right? Mm-Hmm. So an example, I mean, I can give an example from my own life of this even where I was in a new relationship, I was falling madly in love with this person that is now my partner. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And my longer term partner, my spouse was finding that really scary Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, like really, really scary to the point where he was like, can I even trust you? What is going on? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, who are you? What's, what's go, you know, what's happening? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And in my mind, I knew what was happening for me, which was yes, I was falling in love, but I was also really holding the commitments that I had with him. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> the love that I had for him. The, I was really being careful and mindful of like, and not in a reactive, like, you know, scared, let me mm-Hmm.
Libby:
<Affirmative> fix you. Maybe let me make sure you're okay and make sure you're okay kind of way. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, but in a really integrated and balanced way of Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, wow. This is a lot that I'm feeling and also I'm gonna hold it. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I'm gonna hold all of this other stuff too. Yeah. And it was hard, but I was, I thought I was doing a great job. Mm-Hmm. And so when he would come at me and be like, I don't trust you. This isn't safe. You don't love me anymore. Like, all these things were just coming out of him that I had never heard before. All these fears, all these doubts, and I was just, I, I was, at first I would fight it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You know, I would, I would, like you said, you know, when you said like, thoughts and feelings aren't unsafe or scary, I was like, those are actually pretty scary to me.
Libby:
They, you would have this, this picture of me Yeah. As being the a person who would betray you Yeah. Who would lie to you. Yeah. And it was actually being able to create a protective boundary for myself. Yeah. And be able to say, okay, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I know who I am. I know what I'm doing here. I know how I'm behaving, so I know I'm in integrity and I know I'm not doing anything wrong. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Wow. My partner's having a big hard time of it. Yeah. What could be going on for him?
Jules:
Right. And you see how when you add that protection Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah.
Libby:
When I was able to add that protection, which I wasn't always able to have to be clear Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Like, there were times when he would get really triggered and I would just even see it on his face. Mm-Hmm. And I would, and I would get triggered too. And I would just be like, I, I don't actually have a, the ability to put up any protection right now, so I just gotta take a break . I Yeah. I love you. I can't hear you right, right
Jules:
Now. I love you. I'll be back in a bit. Not
Libby:
You later . Yeah. Yep. But there would be all these beautiful moments that I was able to do with him where I was able to hold, okay, I know this isn't about me. Yeah. And that means I can just be with you.
Jules:
That's right. And
Libby:
You're in pain. You're in pain. And I hear that pain and I'm with you. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I'm not afraid of it. I'm not afraid of the pain that you're in because I know what's real for me. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And what's real for you is something else. And it turned out, you know, there was some old stuff with an ex-partner of his that was really getting kicked up that was around all of this. So he wasn't even totally in the present moment when he was having these moments. Totally. And of course it took some time, but we worked through it and we got to a better place.
Jules:
I'd love people to understand this. And this is like, how do we not take it personally? We understand a little bit more the coherence of what's happening. So like, first of all, you didn't take it personally 'cause you put up that protection. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you put up that boundary image between you and him, and that boundary image is gonna do the discernment for you. Right. Wait, you don't love me anymore. I don't love you anymore. What? Is that true or not true? Well, not true. Is that about me or not about me? Oh, I don't think so. I don't think this has anything to do with me. This is about him. Right. Oh, just doing that is going increase the compassion, increase the longing for connection and decrease the fear. So just doing that is great.
Libby:
And it's so funny when you're able to put up that protective boundary Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and be able to hold, it's not my job to change how you feel or what you think. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's my job to be with what you feel and what you think. Yeah. And be okay with it. Right. That is so hard. When someone's misunderstanding, you
Jules:
You. Oh my gosh. Isn't
Libby:
It's the hardest thing because you have to feel that little bit of grief of, oh wow, we are not in the same reality at all. And I really wish we were.
Jules:
Yeah. This little mini grief you're talking about. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> who, and I have such bad news people talk about, so if I set a boundary right, I won't start, I, I won't feel so bad,
Libby:
Right? No, no, no. what's
Jules:
Gonna happen is you're gonna feel like you can handle more.
Libby:
Ooh, ooh. Wait, say that again. Say that again.
Jules:
If you have really deep boundary work, you don't feel better. You feel like you can handle more, it's safer to handle more.
Libby:
Oh.
Jules:
Which means you're gonna face a lot more mini grief moments If you have, if, if you want boundaries to help you avoid grief, do not read my book
Libby:
.
Jules:
I, that's not my thing.
Libby:
Wait, I Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> of course I know this. We, we just spent hours, we together
Jules:
Talking about grief and how people call me the grief lady.
Libby:
Well, and, and like Mm-Hmm. You have to sell people on sitting down with Well, you, you don't have to. But like you, you're very clear, like if your, if your goal is to avoid grief, like, don't come anywhere near me , because that's
Jules:
Not what I, yeah. You don't want what I'm selling .
Libby:
Mm-Hmm. Well, and I do think that people want to be told that this is gonna help them feel better and not have to feel pain and not have to feel grief. Yeah. And what I'm hearing you say is no, it makes it tolerable. It makes it, it makes it okay. Yeah. For me to feel it,
Jules:
It makes me trust myself more that I have the capacity to face it and be in relationship with my own feelings and my people's feelings. Whoever I am in relationship with, I have more capacity not to leave them. I have more capacity not to leave me. Ah, while the grief comes. Ah. Not because the griefs gonna stop.
Libby:
You know, I know this, and still when you say it, I go, that sucks.
Jules:
It sucks.
Libby:
That actually really sucks. . It
Jules:
Sucks. It sucks. But here's, here's where I come down on it, is, for me, being respectful deeply, deeply respectful of who you are is so much more important. Me getting to be honored by bearing witness to who you are is so much more important to me than avoiding grief. That I'm willing to do any amount of boundary work. So I make it more okay for me to hang in there and discover more about you. And I can't do that if I'm freaked out. And I cannot do that if I'm trying to avoid my own grief about our differences or about that. We do want, we do see this moment in different ways. Whatever it is. If I'm busy taking care of that, I already left you, and by the way, I left. Me too. And so it's like, it's, it's so deeply respectful and loving to say yes to my own grief, so that I can say yes to how you show up more. That, that it's okay with me. Yeah. I'm willing to make the deal.
Libby:
Wow. Yeah. I I just wanna pause for a minute and let that sink in. I, I feel like you are showing me, and, and anybody listening a different way to love people and a different way to love ourselves too, because it, it's like we need to learn how to set those external boundaries after we've done this. What you're describing, like creating those internal boundaries first and then being with the grief. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Because if you're setting the external boundaries to avoid grief. To avoid pain Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and to try to change what's happening with someone else Yeah. Then you're not doing that. You're not holding that person respectfully. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you're not holding you respectfully either. Yeah. And so you're missing it
Jules:
You're missing it. You're do it that way. Missing you. You're missing them. Because like, even go back to that example with your sweet husband when you say, no, no, no, it's not like that. It's not what you think.
Libby:
Right.
Jules:
What is it that we're really doing? Oh, I'm trying to get you to feel different than you are. Yep. Yep. You, that self that you're becoming through time right now. Not okay with me. In fact, so not, okay. I would like for you to change you so that I can be here
Libby:
So that I can feel better. . What?
Jules:
Right.
Libby:
It
Jules:
Doesn't make any sense to me.
Libby:
. It doesn't. It doesn't. And yet we do that all the time.
Jules:
Well, I think our whole society's built that way.
Libby:
. Oh. So
Jules:
I'm an American mutt. I was raised in a lot of different Yeah. States all over the us I'm a white lady.
Libby:
We do that to everybody.
Jules:
Yeah. It's all I was, I grew up in
Libby:
I need you to change you so that I can be okay. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. A lot of us grew up with that.
Jules:
I absolutely grew up with that.
Libby:
I mean, as a neuro neurodivergent human, I grew up with that. Like not just in my family, but like Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> out in the world. Like, I need you to change you how you are. Yep.
Jules:
I need you to be different. For me to feel okay. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you received a ton of that.
Libby:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah,
Jules:
Yeah, yeah. So for me, this is really the more integrated brain space is the one that can handle this nuance and flexibility and creativity required to hang in there when somebody's really different from you when somebody's behaving in a way that may be not dangerous. Right. Right. Protect yourself if it's dangerous, get out of there. I want you always to protect your body and, and you know, maybe saying something in a different way than you want them to. Or maybe feeling something in a different way than you want them to. Or thinking something in a different way than you want them to. Like how do we hang in there with that? Yeah. How do we not leave each other with that? And, and you need that slower, more relationally centered processing to do that. 'cause It's really complex.
Libby:
Hmm.
Jules:
Yeah. ,
Libby:
I think I wanna, I, I just, I don't, I I don't wanna take it anywhere else from here. 'cause I think that such an important message. Just Yeah. Like that boundaries are the way that we show. Not just, not just, it's not just about protecting yourself actually. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> it is about protecting yourself. That's an important piece of it. So
Jules:
That your brain can show up.
Libby:
Right. And so that you can be in integrity with yourself and in respect of others.
Jules:
That's right. Exactly. So I show me I'm worthy of fighting for my integrity through this work. I show me I'm worthy of protection through this work. I increase my self-worth every single moment. I execute any one of these boundaries and I love you more. 'cause Now I am not scared of you anymore and I respect you more 'cause I'm not scared of you anymore. Right. And now I'm available to really listen and pay attention and discover all the stuff I didn't even know.
Libby:
Right.
Jules:
So yeah. I love leaving it here 'cause this is all, this internal boundary work is new for a lot of folks.
Libby:
Tell us about other cool things you've got going on where people can connect to you. Yay. So I know that you have the book coming out in December.
Jules:
Yep. Setting Boundaries That Stick is the name
Libby:
Of the book. Setting Boundaries That Stick. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Jules:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And what other cool things? I've got two different workshops for anyone. Not not trainings for therapists. These are for anybody to come and do work with me. I have an online one and in-person one in Austin, Texas. And those you can find out about on my website. And so they're workshops and it's gonna be limited to 10 people. So, and
Libby:
This is all on boundaries, right?
Jules:
These are all all on boundaries. So these are boundary workshops. And so if you want to come and do personal work and if you wanna bring your partner and you both wanna do personal work side by side, that's awesome. And it's not a couple's workshop. That doesn't mean it can't be helpful in couple because this work serves couples really well, I think really
Libby:
Well. So can confirm we we're all about boundaries in my house. All about them. Them.
Jules:
Exactly. It makes things so much better, doesn't it?
Libby:
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.
Jules:
Yeah.
Libby:
And, and wait, I wanna normalize this because we've been all about boundaries in our house for several, several, several years now. Mm-Hmm. It's still a practice. I still have to remember it. My partners still have to remember it. Me too. We all ha and we all lose our containment sometimes. We all lose our protection sometimes. Mm-Hmm.
Jules:
<Affirmative>. Yep. That's still practice for me too. This is Mm-Hmm. I don't think of it as a practice where you get to some finish line, right. And you're there and now you're great. I don't think about it like that like you've done boundaries now check that one off your list. Yeah. I don't think about it like that. I think of it more as like a lifelong growth practice. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So I'm, I've made these two really small workshops where it's only 10 folks coming together to support each other as we work on boundaries and everybody gets a lot of one-on-one attention. 'cause The group's so small and then Right. You can order the book of course. And I do a ton of intensives, so you can sign up for all that stuff on my website. It's juliannetaylorshore.com. So yeah, you can find me there and I don't know.
Libby:
And you also have a podcast?
Jules:
Oh yeah. I have a podcast.
Libby:
. Thank you. I have my
Jules:
Own podcast I have my own podcast with two lovely girlfriends, Rebecca Wong and Vicki Issa. And we, it's called Why does My Partner and we are all relationship therapists and we love to share insights into relational dilemmas. So we have a podcast that you could check out and we have a workshop that we do for couples and it incorporates all this boundary stuff and tons of other brain science-y cool tools. Everything I do is neurobiologically supported. So everything, everything I'm doing is just can I help you work with your brain? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> with the brain you actually have, however that's showing up for you. And by the way, there are some practices that can help.
Libby:
So, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I'll just go ahead and share that in my program. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, when I do a boundaries module, I teach ju as practices. And now that I've learned the containing boundary exercise that you just taught a couple weeks ago Yeah.
Jules:
It's
Libby:
Brand new. Bring that into Mm-Hmm. It's, it's fabulous.
Jules:
Developed it as I wrote the book.
Libby:
Yeah. Amazing.
Jules:
So it's a new one.
Libby:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It's amazing. It's so good. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And this is about practicing how do I create like, not, 'cause we all know like we should pause and think before we speak. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or think before we do. And at the same time I love that. Like, but how, how do we actually do that? How do we, we actually do that? And this is an actual concrete Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> mind body practice. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to actually create that pause. And it's beautiful. I love it. I'm, I'm using it all the time now. . Yay.
Jules:
I'm so glad. That's wonderful.
Libby:
And so if you want that by the book Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> if you want that come to Jules's workshop or come to my program or Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Ask, ask. Yeah. Ask us what you'd like and Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, can people reach out to you and just say, Hey, I think you're awesome. How do I connect with you more?
Jules:
Yes, please. And I have if you check out my website, you can find my email and you can sign up for my mailing list. So please feel free to reach out. I love to talk to folks.
Libby:
Fabulous. Oh my gosh, Jules. Yeah. Thanks for being here. This was amazing. Yay. And oh my gosh. I'm just, I'm just, I love you so much. Ah, I'm like, oh
Libby:
My gosh, I gotta be on Love's podcast.
Jules:
I love you too. And I just so appreciate you bringing me on and helping me talk to folks who you reach and I'm just so grateful you're in my life on
Libby:
Same, same.
