Polyamory and Neurodivergence with Alyssa Gonzalez Pt. 2
In this part 2, Libby and Alyssa talk through some of the challenges that can show up in nonmonogamy for people who are neurodiverse
Transcript
Libby:
We talked about our SD already. What are some of the things you've heard about that sound that make it sound like it would be really hard? Like, 'cause you said before we started recording that there are people who are like, I don't know if I can do that. I don't know if that's something I'm capable of. I don't know if I could handle it. And, and even citing their neurodivergence as one of the reasons why, and I guess I'm curious what you've heard from people about why that feels not possible.
Alyssa:
One big one is that for a lot of us, especially those of us that are autistic definitions, can be a very useful foundation for how we understand our worlds like definitions and categories. A a lot of us are very fond of categories. There's, there's an idea that I, I wish the people who invented created Pokemon would confirm that their franchise is more or less designed for the way autistic minds work, because it's a whole game with not one single reflex based challenge in it. That is totally based on the putting things in categories, and we're making eye contact with an NPC as an act of aggression, <laugh> <laugh>.
Alyssa:
But, but point there is when we're confronted with a world whose patterns don't make a whole lot of sense. And then people tell us, when you have a romantic partner, that means you do these things with them and you don't do these things with other people, and you have a person where these things are true, that means they're your romantic partner, and you do these things with your friends. And so if you do these things with your friends, that makes them a friend. And I, we can build a whole structure of how human relationships work out of all these definitions. And sometimes you'll find edge cases and exceptions that test all of this because humans are complicated and messy. But what those definitions are useful and non-monogamy asks us to systematically deconstruct most of them. Mm. And that can be extraordinarily frightening for someone who is using that to try to make anything about interacting in the wider world. Makes sense.
Libby:
So in, so in a way, the rules, the, the compulsory mono compulsory monogamy and the rules and the rigidity that you know, this is a friend, this is a lover, this is a partner, this is a spouse, et cetera. This is a family member. These all things are, these are the very rigid categories that's comforting.
Alyssa:
Yes.
Libby:
And, and to let go of it and embrace some vagueness to certain autistic brains. I'm not gonna say all of 'em, but like certain autistic brains can feel very destabilizing and challenging.
Alyssa:
very much. And, and so I can imagine for a lot of people, especially people who've been confronted with a lot of loneliness and abandonment say that trying to erode the distinction between, you know, the, your romantic one and only who is the person who's gonna be there, ride or die for you specifically, and who has to be your closest confidant and so on, and other people you're close to that can feel a lot like being abandoned, I think.
Libby:
Well, and you are I mean, I think that a lot of people struggle with this actually when they do let go of the rigid categories.
Alyssa:
Libby:
It's, it's a grief process because there is Yeah. A thing that you thought you had that you could really lean on. Yeah. You know, and then suddenly that thing that you could lean on that was a secure like pillar of how you saw the world, if that's not there
Alyssa:
Libby:
You have to, you have to feel this. There is a lot of sadness, I think, with losing it. Yeah. Definitely. Even if you're not being actually abandoned, you know? Yeah.
Alyssa:
Yeah. There's a definite sense that you're taking something apart and don't have its replacement ready at hand. But the good news is you're in, you're in this project to build that replacement.
Libby:
Yeah. And
Alyssa:
It gets to be a custom job now. Yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Alyssa:
Libby:
Anything else that you have heard or experienced yourself that has felt like a challenge for your brain? I can tell you what mine is, but I'm gonna save it.
Alyssa:
So one I've had to deal with a lot is Alexithymia.
Libby:
<Affirmative>. Okay.
Alyssa:
It's for people who don't speak, you know, science is a situation that a lot of neurodivergent people can deal with, where we have difficulty identifying our own emotions, especially if we're currently experiencing a strong one or, or several strong ones at once. I think a lot of different varieties of neurodivergence can confront this kind of thing. Yeah.
Alyssa:
And it is difficult to have conversations about emotions you can't name, and it's difficult to figure out like what the situation even is if you are having trouble figuring out how you feel about it, and like, what the reason your elevated heart rate and outsized reaction to something that just happened around you is about, and, and especially in a situation as likely to confront a person with new situations as entering into a non-monogamous relationship model can be like, developing some skill with identifying emotions is extremely helpful. And, and not being able to do that can cause a, a lot of unnecessary heartache.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good one. I'll throw out mine, which is Time blindness <laugh>, that's a big one that
Alyssa:
Oh, that's, that's something All right.
Libby:
Yeah. You know, you're on a date with somebody. I mean, I, I have a habit and it's an important habit for me of putting away any technology when I'm spending quality time with somebody. Right. But then I can lose my ability to know how much time has passed. And I think that's like, that's the thing a lot of people experience, but I think I struggle with it extra. And and sometimes I also have a hard time sort of gauging how much time something will take. I'll overestimate some tasks and I'll underestimate others and it means that I, my time management is not what I would like it to be. 'cause of that. And, and I think a, you know, when we talk about managing multiple relationships and putting Different people on your calendar and managing schedules, and a lot of people looking for the consistency and the showing up as a signal that you're important, that you're being thought of that that you're not gonna get abandoned, that you're gonna be, be prioritized, all of that
Libby:
<Affirmative>. And to make sure that you're getting the time that you want with the, your people. Like that also can be a Source of anxiety for people. Being a person who's bad with time can mean those two things can really clash. Right. If somebody's really looking to find security in how I, how well I manage my time, if they're looking they're feeling like, oh, you're important to me if I show up on time for you. That's not how it works in my brain. You're important to me. If I made time for you <laugh>,
Alyssa:
Oh,
Libby:
But if I show up on time,
Alyssa:
Write that one down, <laugh>.
Libby:
But if I don't show up on time, that doesn't mean I don't care. It just means I this up sometimes.
Alyssa:
<Laugh>. Yeah. There's, there's a running gag in the circles I run in that Google calendar is an extra partner in every polycule.
Libby:
Oh my God. Well, this is another example of how technology is very assistive. You know, one point I actually got a smartwatch that would like, give me a little alarm like 10 minutes before I needed to wrap something up so that I could wrap it up. And, you know, and sometimes it would be, oh, I'm not gonna wrap this up. I'll text the next the person that I'm, that's waiting on me or whatever, that I'm not gonna wrap it up because at least then I'm doing the proactive communicating thing. But yeah, I would say that's a big, it's a big one for me.
Alyssa:
Yeah. Definitely. I, yeah. I know something that's come up for me as well is that getting a little too excited about what the idea of a new partner means. Hmm. Is this comes up like less in the context of being autistic or ADHD and more on the traumatized side of Neurodivergence,
Libby:
Which they often go hand in hand.
Alyssa:
Yeah. Yeah. We, we have yet to meet a nont traumatized neurodivergent person, I think. But it's a whole separate topic that I just did not have the space to cover in this book. So, good news, Thornapple Press has something coming out later about this. And also there's Poly Secure that already came out. But there can be this idea that being able to get lots and lots of people to call you a partner is some sort of innate validation of your value as a person, regardless of your ability to follow up on what that means to them or to you.
Libby:
Right.
Alyssa:
And that, that, that can be very exciting. I, I definitely overextended myself while back to which became a matter of some regret. Yeah.
Libby:
Well, it makes sense though, if what you've experienced previously is a lot of rejection, like some people can come overcompensate in the other direction for sure. Yes. And, and that happened to me, but in a different way where I found myself being included in a social group. where in, in a way, I mean, I've had a lot of friend groups in my adulthood, but this social group was like really intimate and really close and just like, it just felt so magical. And then when some things about it to me felt harmful and coercive and I had a hard time stepping away from it because it was so, I was so excited to be there. And to be included. And again, I think what so many of us crave, like, again, humans, not autistic people, not people with ADHD, but humans is a feeling of belonging. Yes.
Alyssa:
So much.
Libby:
Yeah. So when, when we're, yeah. That's when we find it somewhere, whether it's through romantic partnership or a friend group or what have you. or Polycule It can, we can get like you said, overly enthusiastic about it, and maybe be out of alignment with our values.
Alyssa:
Yep. And a result can be having a schedule that becomes difficult to navigate and that not being able to provide the level of commitment that Juan promised and having to reevaluate some relationships. Yeah. They, they, they mostly did it for me. And a complicated situation, I probably shouldn't say in a recorded medium. <Laugh>.
Libby:
Well, I, the, the getting the kid in a candy store that, that I, I think that there are plenty of people who can identify with that who's who've had that experience
Alyssa:
So much. And, and you're absolutely right that it's driven by the, having dealt with the opposite for so long of Being something that no one seems to want. And then all of a sudden multiple people want you at the same time. And you're gonna ride that train as far as it goes. And unfortunately, if you don't exercise some restraint on the way there, you end up hurting not just them, but yourself.
Libby:
Right. Well, that, I think that's a perfect place to transition into. Okay. Let's say we've convinced you <laugh>, or really, I'm not trying to convince anybody, but Alyssa, I think Alyssa is trying to convince you, <laugh>. So let's say Alyssa's convinced you what are some strategies that we would tell folks who are, who know they have a different type of brain who wanna step into this world. What would we tell them that would be sort of the keys to success? Hard one lessons that perhaps we've learned keys to first, specifically for folks who, who are neurodiverse
Alyssa:
A big one is understands the nature of your neurodivergence as thoroughly as you possibly can. Yeah. Even if you don't necessarily want to name it in public, you, you want to know, you know, what parts of you are connected to this, and therefore, which ones you would be, you know hard pressed to set aside for someone who is otherwise interesting, because they're just part of how you're wired. And this also informs the challenges you might face as part of the relationship. Right? every form of neurodivergence, however much their you attributes might overlap, comes with the, a different cocktail of all these ingredients. And knowing yourself is critical. Like, it's critical for like being alive in general, like whatever you get up to with the gift of life. But in, in this endeavor where it's specifically about pursuing relationships without, you know, the guiding heuristic of social norms, like you need to know exactly what you are presenting to someone else and dig, be open and upfront about who you are as much as is safe for you to be
Libby:
Well and as much as you can.
Alyssa:
'Cause It's Yeah. That as well. Yeah. Because it's, it's not really fun for anyone if you, you end up, you know, getting close to someone who isn't getting close to the actual view. And there are all sorts of stories about people who have to hide big pieces of themselves in order to have relationships. And I remember what it felt like to be so lonely that that deal seems appealing. It sucks in every way that you can conceivably scrounge up the option to not do that. Don't do that. it's better for your long-term mental health in so, so many ways. top of further from there, like this is more for Hispanic people in the room. But like, if, if your partner insists that if you're not making the big, loud displays of jealousy every time they interact with someone of a gender they find appealing, that's their problem. If they leave you over that they're doing you a favor.
Libby:
Yeah.
Alyssa:
Thank them for their service and send them on their way. Marie Kondo that nonsense as soon as you possibly can because it's not worth it.
Libby:
<Laugh>. So yeah. Jealousy is not a love language. <Laugh>
Alyssa:
<Laugh>. And I want every Cuban American on the planet to hear that over and over in their sleep until they get it <laugh>.
Libby:
Well, and you had said something about I dealt with in high school. Oh boy. Yeah. <laugh>. Well, and, and you said something about a good coping mechanism for RSD, like, like in terms of like, if you know people who struggle with, again, not just, you know The prospect of rejection, but really any negative feedback when like the system thrives on feedback, and some of it will be negative because we'll have to iterate, we'll have to make adjustments. we'll have to say, that didn't work for us, or, I didn't like that. Or, that was hard for me. what would you suggest that for people who know they struggle with that?
Alyssa:
Yeah. When you're facing an RSD type Pokemon, it's type weakness's patience.
Libby:
Hmm.
Alyssa:
RSD leads to great big emotional spikes that can be very dramatic, but they do not have the endurance to last you. The best thing that you can do for yourself is take a big deep breath, tell that other person, you're gonna take some time to process and then make absolutely no rush decisions. Yeah. Every decision I have ever regretted in my entire life has been a rush decision.
Libby:
<Affirmative>. Yeah. I'll co-sign that. My partner Kyrr and I actually taught a workshop on how to slow down. And I think that that, that, that just dovetails beautifully to what you said when you know that you're spinning out learn how to be nice to the parts of you that are struggling and slow down with yourself. And then, you know, and then, and then again, you can go back to advocating for yourself. but from a regulated place. Yes. because what's happening usually with people with RSD, and this is, you know, this is my, my lay person understanding of it. is the reason why that's a thing is because we've been experiencing so much rejection from the time we were little like that nothing we could do was right.
Libby:
Yeah. And so we would hear, and it's been shown that especially kids with adhd, like the number of times that they've been corrected by the time they're five years old is like, I think 20 times what a neurotypical kid would experience. That sounds right. And I, I, I probably don't have that number quite right, but it's, it's substantial. And so, you know, you'd think that that would mean that your tolerance for it would be high. But for, and for some people, I do think their tolerance is really high to the point where they just, they have a wall up. around feedback, which is not helpful either. But like, I think for a lot of people, it makes them sensitized to it and there's usually no care provided. for all of that criticism, you know?
Libby:
No. It's just that you're wrong. Not that there's a skill you don't have, or there's something you don't understand that you need help with. And so like, you being able to kind of re-parent yourself in a way And be able to say to yourself, okay, I messed this up, or My partner isn't happy with me right now, or they're misunderstanding me, or, or this person didn't like me. Okay. Probably what's getting triggered is some very small young part of you that probably just needed love and didn't get it. And so when you can direct love towards that part, I think that that can help actually unwind that reactivity And over time, if you get really practiced at it, it starts to become something that you just naturally do. Yeah. And, and then it, and then I think it gets a lot less hard
Alyssa:
So much in the interim, just putting some space between the inciting incidents and the reaction to it. gives you time to let that big emotional spike come and go. Gives you time to acknowledge what kind of reaction you're having and gives you Yeah. Time to think about the criticism that you have just received and decide what you are going to do with it. And maybe the answer is telling the other person that, no, you're going to keep doing the thing 'cause it's important. Or maybe it's No, you're right. I was, I'm going to take the trash out on time next time and <laugh>, and maybe it's, I think we can meet each other halfway in in this matter. And maybe it's actually, I think this is someone else's fault entirely.
Libby:
Right? Like, well, and, and, and nowhere in there did I hear try to perfect yourself out of it. you know, like, try to just be more perfect and And I think that's an important thing to hear is that I do think people who have RSD either can be very, like, as a strategy to protect themselves. do a lot of avoidance or do a lot of perfectionism. Yeah. And that's not the way out. You can't perfect yourself out of a correction. You just can't it won't work. Okay. So then you said you had some potentially good coping strategies for Alexithymia. So folks who like imagining, I'm imagining RSD and Alexithymia might be a tough combo. Like, yeah, I feel really bad and I can't tell what I'm feeling. <laugh>
Alyssa:
In one of the big reasons I'm a writer is that being able to sit patiently with the situations in literary form has made them a lot easier to recognize and identify. So a classic strategy for the working around Alexithymia to build the skills that Alexithymia is definitionally you not having, is to read a lot and maintain a diary about what's going on in your day. And, and that's how you figure out that that big arousal spike you had at one point in the day was actually you were just scared because there was construction noise outside at the same time that you got that email that it's on. Or, or maybe you had, when they gave you that bad news, you were scared about what action they might take as a result of doing this. And that's why you freaked out and not because you were angry with them or any of that. Like, taking time to process is important. Taking time to review all the bits and pieces that come along for this big emotional ride is important.
Libby:
Yeah. I mean, what, what I hear in there is like becoming an observer of yourself.
Alyssa:
Exactly. Like
Libby:
Being, being able to, because if you can't feel it internally and let that be your guide sort of stepping outside of yourself and then looking, looking back at yourself can help you understand what's going on.
Alyssa:
Exactly. Sort of, yeah. I think therapeutic dissociation <laugh>.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, I wouldn't call it dissociation actually. In fact, Dan Siegel calls it mind site is this word for I
Alyssa:
Better that <laugh>.
Libby:
Yeah. And and you know, it's interesting my, one of my partners has I think has Alexithymia, I mean, there's never been a diagnosis, but the way this person describes the operating their, their body is sometimes like, they feel like they're a little man inside of a robot suit trying to maneuver things around. And so not always aware of, of what is happening or even sort of like
Alyssa:
<Affirmative>
Libby:
What things trigger him or, you know, those kinds of things. And, and, and it's not so stark. But, but I, you know, he was telling me the other day, he's like, you know, I just don't really have a sense of like, you know, what I am and what I am not. And I was like, how do other people have that? And, you know, I just don't have this internal felt sense of myself. Yeah. And I said, your friend needs, and I said,
Alyssa:
Your friend needs to look up the words dissociation and depersonalization. They, they're going to find the, those paragraphs that define
Libby:
probably. But the thing that I said actually was that I was like, well, I don't know that anybody perfectly has an internal felt sense of themselves exclusively. Like I have some of that, but a lot of what I am know about myself is actually doing what you described, which is journaling. and reflecting and stepping outside of my experience and looking, looking inward at it. And and just having a witnessing mind about myself and also then checking with other people. Like I was thinking I was doing this, what did you see? And not taking their feedback as like the truth, but like Yeah. Combining that with what I've observed about myself with what I've you know, what I felt internally, like combining all of that data to kind of construct who I am. Yeah. And then that's how later on you can tell people about who you are. Right. Very much.
Alyssa:
And it's extra important for people that say constantly get instructed to put certain emotional fronts up in certain situations regardless of how they're actually feeling. Mom.
Libby:
<Laugh> <laugh>. Right. Well, and, and have been told that the ways that you respond naturally to things Yeah. Is in, is incorrect. You know? I mean, I remember like, I used to really not understand why people would get so upset when someone died. like, that was it, it just didn't, it didn't bother me. I think there was this, and it still doesn't really bother me that much. 'cause I sort of accept that like everybody dies. And you never know when your life is gonna end. Yeah. And yeah, it would be, it's, it's sad if there's somebody that you'd really like to continue to be in the company of isn't around to keep you company. But, and it, so it's not that I don't care that someone dies, but I also just don't get like, utterly distraught about it the way other people do.
Libby:
And I always just thought like, am I just broken? Because that's not how I feel. And, and being able to, and like, you know, a lot of people, that's what masking is, right? Yeah. Is being able to observe, oh, this is the thing that I'm expected to feel Or this is the behavior that I'm expected to project or the reaction I'm supposed to have. And so I'm gonna start doing that to be accepted without ever trying to understand, why didn't I feel that? Why wasn't I acting that way? Why didn't I have that reaction? Yeah. So then you kind of bypass understanding yourself. for behaving like everyone else. So I think that witnessing mind piece is like, super important to unraveling, masking and being the authentic you
Alyssa:
So much. This, this is all extremely true.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and I'll throw out for my time, my time blind people haven't figured it out. The best thing that I figured out is actually what Alyssa said earlier, which is just to tell people on the front end, I suck at time, I work on it. I have to tell my clients this too. You know, my, my time isn't, my time isn't perfect. And here's what happens if I'm late. Here's what happens if you're late. here's what I expect of you. Here's what I'll do. Here's what happens when I don't do that. And I get really good at repair <laugh> because, 'cause just sometimes that happens. Yeah. 'cause I don't expect people to be like endlessly compassionate if I'm keeping them waiting. you know, I, I respect that. It's, if we're all time is like the one resource that we have really? Yeah. You know, and,
Alyssa:
And, and people meeting each other halfway means that the, not only should they exercise a reasonable amount of patience with this kind of thing, but you, they, you have to understand why they would be annoyed with it if it keeps coming up.
Libby:
Yeah. I'd love, I'd love that. That's actually, that's so important and I'm really glad you said it. Because I think that, you know, as we talk about Like needing accommodation, needing understanding, needing compassion around any kind of difference. that might show up in a relationship. It's, you know, as people who have been told that we need to do it norm the way, the way the normal people do it. you know, we've been having to, you described it as like, we have to climb this huge mountain to meet people where they are. And they don't have to do anything for us. Now, we're not asking that everybody come down the mountain <laugh>. I don't like down, but, you know, to come down to where we are. I don't like the word down and up, but like, I'm gonna go with it for now. Instead we just wanna see each other and meet each other. How, how far we want to Yeah. Right. Like, nobody, nobody has to meet me. Like if somebody really time is really important to them. Great. I probably should be in a relationship where we don't need to Be on time for things <laugh>. Yes. And I'll do my best. I will do my best to meet. what you, where you are and what you expect. And I'll, I I just ask the same. Exactly.
Alyssa:
Indeed. And there are lots of other quirks a neurodivergent person can bring that are, are best addressed in more, very much the same way. a lot of us have different and sometimes incompatible expectations about what a comfortable home looks like and And they can come up, whether you're spending time with someone short term or trying to make a shared home work that you, you gotta find some way for both people to feel like they're being honored in this matter. Yeah. Or else one person's just giving up a piece of themselves for the other, and maybe it's a piece of themselves they never wanted, but if it's one they can't actually get rid of, then being forced to ignore it is, is not gonna be good for them.
Libby:
Well, or just not being able to do it. Right. I mean, this is a thing that I often say to people is, you know, okay, I see that you'd like your partner to do this thing, and they're not doing the thing. Whatever it is. And they've, you've asked them to do the thing they've said they wanna do the thing. So you have an, an agreement of some kind to do the thing, whatever it is. But then it's not happening. I introduced this radical concept. Maybe they can't maybe it's not about not knowing to do it. Maybe it's not about not wanting to do it. Maybe it's that they can't, and then what we have to do is be in a grief process about this thing that you wanted. just may not be possible in this relationship.
Libby:
And then you get to decide. can I live with that? Can I grieve that and let it go? Or can I, or do I need to be in a different relationship? But what's the worst scenario is what you're describing where The person's continually trying to meet some bar That doesn't work for them, that isn't compatible with their system. Right. That isn't possible for them. And then they're perpetually feeling like not enough. And the other person's perpetually feeling disappointed. And they're both making each other feel terrible. Yeah. Bad deal. Don't do it. <Laugh>.
Alyssa:
Agreed.
Libby:
So like, I get, I feel like it comes back to know yourself. and, and be able to call it when you're like, look, this thing, whether it's a clean home or whether it is time management, or whether it's the amount of time it takes to repair a conflict. 'cause One person needs like three days to calm their nervous system before they can talk rationally about something. whatever it might be. You know,
Alyssa:
You, you
Libby:
You need to be able to like, know what you're capable of and what you're not. And I promise, I promise that I really do believe there's some someone and probably some ones for everybody. I really believe that.
Alyssa:
Absolutely.
Libby:
And so, I don't know, I guess maybe, maybe that's, that's where I would leave it for myself is like, the more you can understand and embrace who you are, I think the more successful you'll be in general.
Alyssa:
<Affirmative>
Libby:
Probably not in the normative world actually, but in this, but in this world that we've carved out for ourselves over here. That's, that's where the juice is. And, and honestly, I, I think I, I think I heard this from you, Alyssa, but I'll speak for myself that the love that I have now in my life that is on the terms of how I actually am as a human being
Alyssa:
Is the best. Yeah. It's the best. So nice. <Laugh>, that's how I ended up being this beacon of neurotic autistic tidiness who mostly dates the absolute disaster trash gremlins, <laugh>, <laugh>. You
Libby:
Don't have to live with them. So it works out
Alyssa:
Exactly that. That's how we make it work. <Laugh> <laugh>.
Libby:
Cool. Anything you wanna say before we part Alyssa, that you wanna just offer people before we say goodbye?
Alyssa:
You, you can do the non monogamous thing. I promise you. You're, you're better at this than you think you are. Even if you're just starting and you can figure out where, where your hangups and challenges are, and you can make this work. And there are lots of ways it cannot work with a specific person. There's plenty of toxicity to go around. And it, non-monogamy isn't a, a way to neutralize it all, but you can make this work. Like, it's, there are very few personalities that absolutely require that you, you know, loudly proclaim that someone you love isn't allowed to show their love to other people or vice versa. That if love isn't about freedom, then what's it even for? Wow. Also, I wrote a book based by my book
Libby:
<Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and in addition to your book, which people can buy wherever books are sold, I'm assuming.
Alyssa:
Yeah, that is correct.
Libby:
How can other people connect with you?
Alyssa:
You can find my work in general@alyssagonzalez.com. It's gonna be spelled somewhere, right?
Libby:
Yeah. I'll have it in the show notes.
Alyssa:
Okay. That is also where you can buy signed copies of this book. If I've got a whole bunch more I want to not have on my shelf anymore. <Laugh>, every now and then I put up discounts. My blog is the-orbit.net/alyssa. Gotta confirm. I remembered that. Right.
Libby:
And we'll link it. Yeah.
Alyssa:
Excellent. Doesn't update very often, but I like what I put up there as I'm on a whole bunch of different social media, but you'll find the links for that on my website.
Libby:
Beautiful.
Alyssa:
Hmm.
Libby:
Well, Alyssa, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really lovely to talk to you.
Alyssa:
It's been an honor, a privilege, and a delight. Yay. <laugh>
