Solo Polyamory with Crystal Byrd Farmer
Long-requested, Libby discusses solo polyamory with Crystal Byrd Farmer, author, organizer, diversity consultant.. and solo polyamorist.
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Transcript
Crystal:
I decided I didn't want to live with anybody. I wanted to prioritize myself, prioritize my relationship with my daughter, still be polyamorous and date multiple people and be in relationships that were fulfilling. But for me, it was kind of a tiredness of being entangled with someone and a desire to not have to worry about that part of a relationship.
Libby:
Before I jump into today's episode, I just wanna say a few quick words. First of all, as of launching this episode, which is coming out on Tuesday, January 23rd, I am currently enrolling for my foundations of open, relating for wild and tender hearts. This program is my signature offering. It is the synthesis of years of work and learning and training and working with clients and working in groups. It is, if you have been loving my show and you want to go deeper, if you want to learn how to bring some of these ideas that I talk about on the podcast into your life, into your regular practices, and you, I mean, you can do that on your own for sure, but if you wanna do it with the support of me directly and of with a group of like-minded people who are all about this stuff as well, this is the thing.
Libby:
Like, it's, it's one thing to learn about boundaries by listening to podcast episodes about it. It's another thing to be able to actually practice it, actually discuss how it would apply to a particular situation in your life, to have an opportunity to like see how it plays out for other people in like real time. So if you're interested in going beyond just listening to this stuff or just talking about this stuff, or watching videos about this stuff, if you are interested in learning about how to let it transform your life and your relationships, foundations of open relating for wild and tender hearts is what I would recommend. And I'd love for you to join me in January. We get started on January 30th, so that's just a week away from this recording.
Libby:
So you don't have a lot of time, but you have some time. So if you have been sitting on the fence, consider this your call to get off the fence and get in the group. It's gonna be great. And it's already half full, so there aren't a a, an unlimited number of spaces 'cause the cohorts are pretty small. Okay, now on to the episode with Crystal Byrd Farmer, where we talk about solo polyamory. I am really delighted to introduce you to Crystal. I just think she's an amazing human being and a friend, and I just, I love our conversation. So let's just dive in. Welcome to Making Polyamory work, Crystal. I'm so glad to have you.
Crystal:
Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Libby:
So everyone, this is Crystal Byrd Farmer. And Crystal, why don't you introduce yourself. I'd love for you to just tell my listeners about you and all of the amazing things that you're doing. <Laugh>.
Crystal:
Yeah. So I'm Crystal Byrd Farmer. I'm a writer and speaker organizer. I work primarily in the Intentional Communities movement. I've been active in the polyamorous, non-monogamy world and the sex positive world as well. So I write and speak about diversity. I talk about polyamory and non-monogamous relationships. I talk about kind of helping communities be more inclusive and, and understanding of different things. I talk about neurodivergence. I run a school called Gastonia Freedom School, that is a agile learning center. So it is a self-directed learning center for kids with autism, intellectual disabilities, ADHD, things like that. And I'm on the board for the Foundation for Intentional Community. What else? I wrote a book <laugh>, I wrote a book in 2020 called The Token Common Sense Ideas for Increasing Diversity in Your Organization. So that book is about my experiences in the world and how some organizations were more or less welcoming and my recommendations for how organizations and communities can be more welcoming to people of all different types of identities
Libby:
That how do you have all the ener? I'm just amazed, like I'm hearing this, this long list of things that you do. And I also know you're a parent. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of a kiddo. And I'm just like, wow. <Laugh>. And it is an impressive list of things that you do.
Crystal:
Yeah, I think it's just that I, I like to keep busy and I'm just very interested in a lot of different things. And so those interests kind of carry me through Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, that passion for helping people, for investigating things that keeps me kind of involved in different areas of the world. So,
Libby:
Well, I would say we're lucky to have you in this world doing all of that. Yeah. you know, I remember Crystal when I first met you, I mean, I don't think we exactly met, but I, I saw you, you were at Atlanta Poly, we, Atlanta Poly weekend, and you ran a workshop for the new Culture South group where you were, I can't remember exactly what it was. It was kind of an authentic relating thing I think you were doing.
Crystal:
Yeah. It was kind of connection games Yeah. In the, in the vein of authentic relating. Yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. And I just, I just thought that was so that's like an yet another thing that you're, you have been involved with in the past, I know, is the new culture. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> space and connection games and and the intentional communities I think is just, I know a lot of people in polyamorous spaces. Like it's, if you talk to, if you get enough of us in a room and you talk, well, what is your dream? What do you really want? Oh, well, I really want to like live in an intentional community with my friends and we're all raising our kids together and <laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So maybe I'll have you back on another time so we could talk about intentional communities. 'cause I bet you are just such a, a wealth of information there having been in the community for intentional communities. <Laugh>.
Crystal:
Yeah, definitely. There's lots of great things about it. There's lots of hard things about it, but yeah, it's, it's a fascinating subject,
Libby:
But here we are, we're here to talk about solo polyamory. And the reason why I reached out to you about solo polyamory is because I have had a lot of my listeners asking me folks, you know, either DMing me on Instagram or shooting me an email or putting a comment in my webpage. I've gotten a few saying, you know, okay, I hear about this, you know, these things that you're talking about, but would you be willing to speak to the solo polyamory experience and like, how to do that? Well, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I was like, well that's not my, that's not my lived experience, you know, I'm very much not a solo polyamorous. I, I, I'm kind of the opposite of a solo polyamorous when you think about it, given that I'm living with two partners and Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> two of my kids. And I would be open to more of that. So I, I thought I would bring you in to speak to your experience. And I guess I'm wondering if we could just start with like, how did you land with solo polyamory for yourself?
Crystal:
Yeah, so I so I've been polyamorous for, oh gosh, I have to do the math 15 or 16 years now. And I was kind of single for a while. I was dating people, I got married and we had an open relationship. So that was kind of my introduction to the world of non-monogamy. When we got divorced that was 10 years ago, I came solo poly. I decided I didn't want to live with anybody. I wanted to prioritize myself, prioritize my relationship with my daughter, still be polyamorous and date multiple people and be in relationships that were fulfilling. But for me it was kind of a tiredness of being entangled with someone and a desire to not have to worry about that part of a relationship.
Libby:
Yeah. And, well, and when you say tiredness, would you be willing to expand on that a little more?
Crystal:
Yeah. So, you know, part of it was like the individual relationship with my husband, my ex-husband and, and how we related to each other. But I felt like I was taking care of him emotionally a lot. And when I came home from work, there was all these things that I had to do for him to help him feel comfortable and settled and, you know, himself. And I, I didn't want that anymore. That was part of the reason why we got divorced. It was like, you know, you need to be independent and, and do your own thing. And having a daughter and my daughter's autistic, so having her and all the needs that she had, it was like, I can't take care of two people and myself. I have to take care of myself first, and then I'll have capacity to take care of my daughter and then I can bring someone else into the relationship. Hopefully have more healthy relationships where I'm not in a, like a codependent like actually physically, mentally, emotionally carrying somebody so that they can have a healthy life.
Libby:
Wow. So, I mean, if I'm hearing you right, a big part of it was that it was really hard to live with your husband and not also like, be in this caregiver role with him. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.
Crystal:
Mm-Hmm.
Libby:
<Affirmative>. And, you know, I, I get it. I mean, I'm, I'm making up some reasons why that, that like dynamic could've just gotten fallen into, because there's a lot just in gender dynamics of like being a, a wife and, and having a husband and this expectation of like, through the sort of patriarchal norms that we have of when, when you're open maybe you're like busting past some of those things. 'cause Some of that is, you know, you've gotten rid of the, like, ownership aspect. <Laugh> Mm-Hmm.
Crystal:
<Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Libby:
Of like monogamous relationships that can show up, which is very patriarchal. But it's interesting to hear you say like, I still felt like I was caretaking him and caretaking my daughter. And then also nobody's caretaking me. I'm caretaking me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So it makes sense that you would reject that. And, and so am I hearing that for you? That's what it would mean if you lived together that, that you would be kind of back in that dynamic? Like, that entanglement would mean, oh, now I'm taking care of my partner again.
Crystal:
I think now I've evolved to a healthier view of relationships with other people. And that, I mean, I still have the urge to take care of people, but I have better boundaries. And that I can say, okay, this is your stuff to deal with. But that is kind of a fear in the back of my head is like, okay, if I move in with somebody, if we're commingling everything, are they going to need me to take care of X, Y, Z for them? Are they going to lean on me to do these things that they don't wanna do because I'm better at it? Or because, you know, they don't have the capacity to do it. And I think about that a lot too. 'cause I identify as disabled, and so I know there are things that I can't do well. Mm-Hmm. And it would be great to have a partner who could do those things for me. Mm-Hmm. So it's kind of like I'm, I am afraid that that person would lean on me, but I would also be leaning on them in an unhealthy way. So that's what's in the back of my head.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I guess I wanna name that when you live separately, there is the advantage of if there's something that you're not able to take care of, then the only person that impacts might be just you, or maybe you and your kiddo if you're living with your kiddo. But it, it's, you're able to have more like physical distance from when something isn't getting taken care of. Like as, just as an example that isn't like a do or die thing that needs to be taken care of. But let's say, you know, for you, dishes are like overwhelming to do, and so you do them twice a week instead of like every day. But you have a, but you have a partner who, like, their preference is to have them done like as soon as they're used. And so I wouldn't even say that's like a difference in ability.
Libby:
It might just be an, a difference of preference and a difference of like capacity. But like, if you live together, suddenly you're kind of on top of each other with that difference. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And then that partner who likes their dishes done right away might step in and do all the dishes and then might get resentful about it might feel like, well, this is now this is all on me, and you might feel guilty about it if you're the one not doing the dishes. And so then the, the living together creates a problem that doesn't have to be there if you're not living together.
Crystal:
Right.
Libby:
And I can't, I think that's what I'm kind of hearing when I'm hearing like, if this person isn't taking care of some stuff, I might step in and take care of it because it will make me feel better. And it might help them too. And they might want me to do it. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But then I might not be happy about it because then it's a drain on my capacity. It's taking extra effort to do, I mean, am I tracking that right as, as being recovery?
Crystal:
Yeah. No, that was, that was my experience in my marriage was that we both had our things that we needed. We wanted to be done a certain way, and when it wasn't being done that way, we took over all of it. Mm-Hmm. So he was actually the one who did dishes because he was very particular about the sink being clean at the end of the day. And I was particular about finances. So I would do the spreadsheets and tracking how much we spent and what we spent it on. And it was kind of, like I said, it was codependent in that we were overcompensating for each other, but not talking out what these differences were and why we were doing them for each other. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and what we wanted to do differently to how do we wanted to establish boundaries so that we each kind of were independent on our own and able to, to function.
Libby:
Well, I'm, what I'm hearing there is that you, you did all those things. You kind of, you stepped in and took over one part of the, like, family need in terms of doing the finances, and he stepped in and took over the dishes, but there wasn't a, what I'm hearing is there wasn't like a conversation about that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, nobody like negotiated and agreed, Hey, I'm gonna, you, you don't like doing the finances on I'll, I'll take it on. That's fine. And since you are doing all the dishes, I'm gonna feel fine about that trade off. Like, I don't mind holding this all by myself and doing it for you. And, you know, and you know, there's, there's other examples that I can think of. You know, maybe one person just like never buys their own clothes or never makes their own medical appointments. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I feel like there are people in that situation. And so, you know, maybe it's because they have a hard time making phone calls, you know? Right. Like a, like a good millennial <laugh>
Crystal:
<Laugh>.
Libby:
And and so maybe one person in the family just kind of like swoops in and takes that on again, without the negotiation, without the discussion, without the agreement. And then they're silently resenting it. And then the other person is also maybe feeling like their agency's taken away, maybe feeling controlled, maybe feeling like, you know, so it, I can see how that would be unhealthy Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> in that dynamic. I guess I'm curious though, and, and maybe this is just me coming from the place that I'm in, like, is there a way in your mind from your perspective, where you could share things like that? Like have a partner take over something for both of you that you share in your living situation, but that you've negotiated and agreed to in a way that doesn't feel like unhealthy?
Crystal:
I'm curious about that because I'm in a couple different relationships now, and there's a lot of communication and kind of discussion about what our needs are. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and how we can support each other, but it doesn't roll over into kind of the domestic situation of what would happen if we were living together. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> I think we've talked about, you know, a little bit of hypotheticals of like, okay, you know, the dishes or who would, who would take care of like most of the, the parenting. Like I would probably do most of the co-parenting just because she's more comfortable with me. And yeah. That's a whole nother thing I haven't thought about with my partners is living together and co-parenting. But when, when I talk to my partners about things that, and how we're carrying the load of the relationship Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it just feels like we're able to communicate better about who is doing what and, and why they're doing it, and what feels most comfortable. And there's that not, there's not that resentment there. So when I think about living together, I wonder if we're gonna fall into kind of these typical patterns Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, the, you know, the, the gendered patterns of who does what Mm-Hmm. Since I'm the caretaker of a daughter, you know, am I doing most of the parenting? Who's doing the dishes? Who's doing the laundry? I imagine that we can communicate through those things and work them out. It just stresses me out to think about
Libby:
<Laugh>. Well, and the, you know, as a person who's in that situation, right. Where I live with two partners and my two kids, and one of the partners is the bio parent of my kids, and the other one is not, and does not have any interest in being a parent, you know? Mm-Hmm. Being in the parenting role, it has been a little interesting to figure out, to like, navigate and negotiate all of the tasks that go into living in a household together. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, I, like, I can, I really do see, and like really can appreciate the appeal of just having it be separate Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, because negotiating that stuff can be really exhausting. And then after you kind of had to negotiate that stuff through your day, through your week, or what have you, you know, when you wanna just have, you know, lovely partner time, connected time, if that negotiation part of negotiating, oh, who did the dishes, who did the laundry? Did you clean up after this? You know, all these little things, if you haven't worked it out well, they build up and they back up on you. Mm-Hmm. To the point where you see your person, it's, it, maybe it's date night or whatever, and you're hanging out and it's like, Ugh, I'm still at you about the dishes. You know? Yeah. <Laugh>. But if you're, if you're solo and you're separate, then like, that's, that's not in there. Right. You don't give a what your partner did with their dishes at their house, <laugh>.
Crystal:
Yeah. I mean, no, there still could be things that have built up about resentments or, or thoughts, but yeah, it's definitely, there's an element that's just kind of not there most of the time. Yeah.
Libby:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Well, and what I imagine, and you know, again, I, I wanna check it out with you because I, the reason I haven't spoke about this on my show before is, again, because it's not my lived experience, but what I'm, what I imagine, and this is what I've imagined when I've spoken to like a number of solo poly folks, like one of my colleagues is super committed to solo polyamory. And I talked to tick of Tick of a wolf a few I think a couple years ago at this point, kind of curious to ask them like why they do solo polyamory. And the answer I've kind of gotten has been consistently, like, it's easier for me to have more of a, like a structural physical boundary around certain kinds of entanglements, because when we're all up on top of each other, living together, sharing this stuff, impacting each other in all of these little incidental ways, like all the time, it just gets to be too much. You know, it just gets to be too many things building up on each other. And it gets in the way of like, the love and the fun and the joy and the connection, because all this other stuff is just gunking it up.
Crystal:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I, I can resonate with that. I think for me, it is that I can carve out time that's specifically with my partners Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and say, okay, this is the beginning and the end of that time. Right. And then I have kind of control over that exposure to that partner. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So it is not, it doesn't get overwhelming. If it's too overwhelming, then I say, I'm going back to my house and doing my thing alone. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or with my daughter, and I'm just here.
Libby:
Yeah. That's another good point that you make actually, just with that statement is like when you, I mean, in a, and then this is more of a monogamy context, I think. I think when you're non-monogamous, even if you live together, you do have to, I think you have to reframe this, but the idea of default time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> where if you live together and you're partnered, there's an assumption that all the default time is together time. You know? And, and I think that is really common. And when I think about one of the things that, that I think it's, it's even important to me as a person who cohabits with two other people two other adults, is that like, I still want my time to be my time rather than my time to be someone else's time. And when I think about solo polyamorous folks, one thing that sounds repeatedly really important is this feeling of like, my time belongs to me.
Libby:
I, I, I need a certain amount of freedom and agency. And if you feel like entitled to things that are mine, <laugh> Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, my time, my energy, my attention, my labor, and that you can just kind of come in and get it whenever you want. That feels really intrusive. And, and that's kind of what I'm tracking and what you're saying. It's like, no, I decide when we spend time together and then I decide when I'm done. And <laugh> Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And that's much easier to do when I have my own house to go to.
Crystal:
Yeah. I feel like if I had one partner living with me, then that partner would get a lot of the default time. But also it would just, would just be easy to say, okay, well, we're spending the weekend together because they're already here. But when I have partners who are away and I have to like, consciously think, okay, who haven't I seen lately? Who do I wanna see? You know, I have to consciously make those decisions and that makes it more valuable when I spend time with them.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's like that intentionality of it, it sounds like, makes it feel better. And if you're, if that person's just around all the time, you can end up spending a lot of time with them, just like, not intentionally. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> it might even be quality time, it might even be good time, but then it doesn't feel like you're fully choosing it. Is that, is that what I'm hearing? Yeah,
Crystal:
Definitely.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. And I can relate to that. I can definitely relate to that. It's interesting though and the reason I say that I, I, I did a whole episode of my show years ago on intentional versus incidental time, because I think sometimes people don't recognize that that's, that those are two really important different buckets. And it's funny because when, when I started dating more and going and doing more stuff just on my own, outside of the context of my partnership, my partner and I, my, my, my co-parent and I are always very autonomous. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I remember when we first got together and we started living together, he was very insistent that like, whatever plans I made were for me. And I could not assume that he was gonna be a yes to them, which was so interesting. I had never lived with anybody before, so it was a new experience.
Libby:
So, but he kind of was very clear from the get-go, like, your default time is not my, is doesn't, doesn't belong to me. And my default time doesn't belong to you. Which I thought was interesting. So like, we, we already started out with this, like, we're not assuming anything Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But then at a certain point, 'cause there was a point for a long time where I wanted more of his time than he wanted of my time. Like, he was working a lot and very excited about his job, and I was just really wanted to talk to him a lot. Like I have, I, I, I like connecting with my people a lot. <Laugh>. Yeah. And so there was this point where I, I was like, okay, well, like you're busy, I'm gonna go hang with a friend, or I'm gonna go on a date or what have you.
Libby:
And then there was a certain point where it flipped where suddenly he was missing me and I was spending more time with other people and he was starting to get nervous about feeling like not important, but it was interesting 'cause I was doing all the initiating of our time together. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I was like, <laugh>. So I had to turn to him. I had to go, look, I'm, I've still got the same amount of time. I'm just, you just might have to chase me for a change. <Laugh>. Yeah. You might have to ask me for time. You might have to ask for a spot on my calendar. And I think for like, people who have that expectation of ongoing time together, when their partner starts seeing someone else or multiple someone else's, and that default time just isn't there as much anymore. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> it can be really destabilizing to be like, oh, wait, I have to ask for the time of the person that I lived with <laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. I have to, I have to create that intentional time with them, which is, I, I, again, I think it's a thing you should do solo polyamory, or not solo polyamory if you're living, you know, you gotta make that intentional time with people.
Crystal:
Yeah. That's kind of our, our expectation in my relationships is like, you have to ask, if you wanna spend time with me, I'm gonna ask you if I wanna spend time with you. Because it's not just gonna be, I mean, with one partner, I had a, a recurring, and this was my dive into like hierarchy a little bit last year. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we had like a recurring, you know, we're gonna spend Thursdays together. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But it just felt like, it didn't feel great, but for the other partners, it was like, you know, we have to decide that we wanna spend time together. And so each time we, we think about each other, we have to decide, okay, what am I gonna do to spend time with that person to schedule something, you know, Google Calendar is, is amazing. So that's what we, we needed to do. We need to say, I need to get on your calendar.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what I'm hearing from you is that that intentionality, that asking that, having to ask and having to co-create that time every time makes it feel more valuable to you.
Crystal:
Yeah, it's definitely valuable to me. It feels important that we are continually choosing each other.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. And then in a more enmeshed or entangled situation, if you were living together and sharing stuff together, it can feel a little murkier, can't it? Like Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, because you have all these other like, shared obligations and shared entanglements that are harder to entangle. So like, if you get that, I don't wanna call it codependent, I know you kind of referred to it that way, but like, I would call it interdependent. Like, you're, like, if you're, like, for example, if you're buying a place that you can't afford, unless the other person is also paying the rent, right? So like, you're, you're dependent on the other one for the financial contribution of the rent and the utilities and stuff. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So that, that mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> space that you're sharing is affordable. It can feel a little bit like, well, are we still choosing this? Or are we just here because we don't have a choice? We can't afford this, we'd have to move if this wasn't working anymore. Mm-Hmm.
Crystal:
<Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That's something that comes up for me is, you know, because divorce was a financial legal mess. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, and I'm not sure I wanna go through that again. You know, as far as getting married to somebody, but even if we're not married, you know, moving in with somebody, there is a lot of obligations that you just kind of like have to make, you have to kind of get tied together with. And is the potential for having to decouple those things, is the potential for doing that gonna cause more stress? Or is it just easier to, to not ever put those things together?
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it is, it is a significant risk, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, when you do that, you know, one might make the case. And I guess I'm curious how you'd respond to this one might make the case, though. I definitely think a lot of people make this the case for marriage. Which I don't know if I agree with myself, <laugh>, but like, 'cause I don't actually, even though I am married, I, I regularly question whether I should be given my relational practices because the, it doesn't, it doesn't line up <laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But but I am for now. And, and that's, I don't, it was a decision that we made under different circumstances, but when I think about like, any kind of entanglement where it's not so easy to get out of it, whether it's living together or running a business together or owning property together or being married, one thing I think about is that the, the entanglement might incentivize you to work something out because it's hard to get out of it. Like, that's the argument I've heard for marriage. It's like, if you're married, oh, well then you can't just get a divorce. The first time you have a fight, you're incentivized to work it out because you're a little stuck together. And I wonder how you'd respond to that.
Crystal:
Well, I'd say the process of divorce incentivizes you to work it out. <Laugh>.
Libby:
So wait, say more. What do you mean?
Crystal:
So getting a divorce, we had to figure out, you know, who owned what, like, you know, because we had bought things together. And so it was now like, who's gonna actually own that property? And my husband was moving away, so I ended up with the default of, of most of the physical things. But then it's like splitting up retirement accounts or, or you know, settle settling, who's gonna get what money when we die, who's gonna be in charge of health insurance for Courtney? All those things, all those logistical things were just a nightmare to, to organize. And so that would keep me from getting a divorce. If I were married again, it would say, this work is a lot. So it's easier to kind of go with the flow and continue on with what we have and try and maintain it. That's kind of what I think about inertia.
Crystal:
When I think about people who are married, they're like, it's just easier to stay in that flow and to stay, to stay married so that it has positives and negatives. And that the negative would be if you really don't want it and you're not satisfied, then you know, that's a bad thing. Mm-Hmm. But if you do want it, and you, you, you encounter a hiccup, you can think about, well, this is just a hiccup. It doesn't mean that we have to get divorced and, and end everything because ending everything still means that we have to be in a relationship. I mean, I'm still in relationship with my husband, my ex-husband for the past 10 years because we have a child. We have these things that, that tie us together. So it doesn't mean that I'm completely blowing up what we had. It's just a change of how we're relating.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, so that's interesting. So I think what I'm hearing you say is that the decision to divorce requires you to actually really look, required you at least to really look at all of the collective decisions you've made so that you could unmake them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But if you had stayed married, you might have just kind of kept it rolling and maybe not looked at any of that stuff.
Crystal:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Libby:
Yeah. And when I think about that, I'm thinking like, so one could make the case, and I think I would make the case too, I'm, I think I'm with you on this, that that one of the dark sides of like being entangled is that it would keep you from rocking the boat if something wasn't working or something wasn't going well because you don't wanna unsettle things because of the big cost that there would be to what if you start to pull apart how things are going and you just realize, oh, this is a big mess and Yeah. Yeah.
Crystal:
Yeah. And then it tends to, I don't know why it happens, but it seems that in, at least in the monogamous world, that when people get divorced, they turn really nasty and the feelings just start just so negative that they're trying to go out and get the person now. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So they're being really, really vindictive and negative and doing things that they might, you know, that you're, you're doing these things to somebody that you said you loved Mm-Hmm. But now these things that you're doing are kind of hateful.
Libby:
Yeah. It's like the gloves are off. Mm-Hmm.
Crystal:
<Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.
Libby:
Well, and it's interesting 'cause I've, I've been up close to see some of that not play out, but like the feelings underneath and why that might play out Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> because as you say, with your, with your ex spouse, like you have a kid together, so there's an interest in not doing that. Right. Like, to not blow everything up because that person's someone you're gonna have to continue to interact with and negotiate with around your child. And yet, I I also, I know exactly what you mean about even people who are co-parenting sometimes, like blowing things up using the kid against the other one. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, all kinds of horrible stuff. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I mean, that alone, like, just seeing that, knowing that that thing happens, <laugh> could I understandably make a lot of solo poly folks or people who are not solo poly, but are considering it go, oh, solo poly actually sounds pretty good <laugh>, because at least I'm protected from that <laugh>.
Libby:
But what, what comes up for me is the thing you said earlier about like, just kind of letting it roll and keeping it going. Mm-Hmm. It's like people will, without negotiating it, make all these little trade-offs, you know, as they're living together and they won't talk about it. Mm-Hmm. But it's all these little trade-offs that they've made. And then at some point someone says, I don't want this anymore. And then all those little trade-offs feel like a big betrayal. You know, like all of a sudden I've made, I've done all this stuff from you, for you, I've, I've been willing to make all these concessions for you, and now you're leaving, we'll, fine then. Okay. No more Mr. Nice person. You know, and it's like, the gloves are off. No more concessions. I'm, we're, we're in this to the <laugh> bite to the courtroom. I don't know. And, and so a thing that I hear in there is that even if you decided to get married, not you specifically, but even if a person decided to get married, like thinking about getting together as though you might at some point separate, might be helpful <laugh> in that. Yeah.
Crystal:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. As someone who has divorced, I, I think that's worth thinking about and talking about not in debt, you're saying, I doubt the longevity of our relationship, but that I care about you as a person. And I don't want us to ever be in that mindset where, oh, now I have to get you because all of these terrible things that all these, all of these things that I've withheld Mm-Hmm. For the sake of our relationship, now I'm gonna turn on them. So I think you have to kind of be conscious about we're getting married and we're gonna have to negotiate throughout our lives about what's happening, and let's just make sure that we're consenting to everything that we're doing as we're doing it.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Which again, I just wanna name as someone who, that was my philosophy from the get go in my partnership with my spouse, and also in my partnership with my other partner that I live with who's not my spouse, but like, we're, we're close. We share a lot of things. I wouldn't say there's like precisely a hierarchy there. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. There is, and there isn't because of the parenting stuff and because of the longevity stuff. So like, I wanna, I don't wanna pretend it's like all perfectly equal, but Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But I don't see it as prescriptive, I guess. Like I don't say Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, this person's always more important to me than this person or anything like that. But even in our dynamic, it's so easy for us just because decisions happen quickly and you're, you're just as an example of like something that you kind of brought up.
Libby:
Like one person can just kind of like step in and solve a thing. And then they just started doing it consistently and nobody negotiated it and nobody agreed to it. And we're all kind of wondering, you know, well, we talk about it, like, to be clear, but like, it can happen where something's already happening before we've negotiated it. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And then we have to check in and be like, Hey, I've noticed you always take the trash out on Thursdays. And it's like, it's become your job now, but we never said it was your job and you never said it was your job. Does it feel okay that it's your job? Mm-Hmm. Or did you wanna have that be a rotating thing? Like, and you know, like being able to like check on that stuff. 'cause Otherwise it can be that you just like start doing a thing. Mm-Hmm. Like you said, it just goes along.
Crystal:
Yeah. And I'm trying to think if there are examples of how we do that in solo poly relationships. And is is there's a lot less of those things that become automatic in our relationships. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Like, it could be that maybe I'm always the one who's planning our outings or planning our dates and that's falling into something that we didn't negotiate. But it's a lot easier to, I think it's a lot easier for those things to be on the level of awareness instead of just like, automatic, this is what I'm doing because I'm also taking care of the house.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, right. And also if you're, again, if you have that, a lot of that entanglement that would be very difficult to disentangle from, then it can be scary to like rock the boat and try to talk about it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because what if that person doesn't like you bringing that up? Or what if they, you know, they really don't want you to, they, like, let's say you're saying, Hey, actually I have kind of fallen into this, but I don't like to do it and I don't wanna do it. Mm-Hmm.
Crystal:
<Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm.
Libby:
<Affirmative> negotiation can be scary. <Laugh>.
Crystal:
Yeah. Definitely. Definitely.
Libby:
Another thing that's coming up, just the to loop back to something you said about boundaries. 'cause I think about boundaries a lot, like all the time. And I have this theory that I wonder if I can try out on you and see what you think. Okay. So I, I I, I shared this in one of my groups. And the folks when I shared it were just like, whoa, I never thought about it like that before, but it really makes sense. So when I was growing up, I was an only child and my parents split when I was 10. And so it was like just me and my mom just the two of us for a long period of my childhood. And my mom really treated me like, not quite an equal, but like, very much like with a lot of respect, with a lot of interest.
Libby:
And sometimes even with maybe I might say too much empowerment in the sense that sometimes she just kind of gave me whatever I wanted and let me do what I wanted, but also a fair amount of like, freedom and like, 'cause she was working. And so like, I was a latchkey kid. I had to come home alone. I sometimes had to feed myself and you know, lunch and dinner. In fact, I remember at one age she was like, either you make your own lunch or you eat what they have at the cafeteria. I'm not, I'm not making your lunch for you. So there was a lot that my mom just didn't, couldn't do for me. And so I had a lot of independence and autonomy but also a lot of permissiveness. And so I come into adulthood and I didn't have to negotiate a lot, you know?
Libby:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I mean, I did at school, I did in other settings, but in my home life, I, you know, my mom would tell me to clean my room, but like, if I didn't do it, I didn't get punished or anything, you know, like, so yeah, <laugh> and and there wasn't a lot, there's just not very much strictness. And I also wasn't a difficult child in the sense that I didn't, because I didn't have a lot of rules to break. I didn't break any rules and I didn't, I wasn't rebellious or anything like that. I was really a rule follower, goody two shoes when it came, got good grades, all that stuff. So I enter, I, I entered adulthood and I was like, I feel fine doing whatever I wanna do. And my struggle was being in a setting with other people and negotiating with them.
Libby:
That was actually where I struggled, was like, not kind of like, like my ability to soften and kind of go with what other people wanted to do. My ability to sort of listen and hear subtle cues of, I'm not happy about this. With people who had a harder time being more direct and confrontational. Mm mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. That was where I struggled. And so what I think is hilarious is that, of course, my dream scenario is lots and lots of people, lots and lots of negotiation, lots and lots of accountability, lots and lots of me softening myself to be able to be with other people because of where I came from, which was very solitary, kind of lonely. You know, I didn't even have a lot of extended family to wanting like maximum enmeshment, <laugh> or enmeshment is not the right word, maximum entanglement. And when I think about people who I've talked to who are more interested in solo polyamory, a lot of them didn't have have that type of upbringing.
Libby:
Like they came into adulthood thinking, oh, I need to help other people. I need to make myself as small as possible to make things work. I'm gonna accommodate everybody else before I think about myself. And so when they're in a living situation, their, their needs are often getting just regularly steamrolled even by themselves. Like they are doing it to themselves in a way. And then when they finally realize, this really isn't working for me, what they need in order to even figure out what they want, what they need, and be able to hold the boundaries that they need to hold is physical separateness. Like, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because what they need to learn, what they need to grow into is what I grew into when I was a kid and what I need to grow into is what they knew very well when they were a kid, <laugh>. And so it's like we're both coming from opposite directions. Mm-Hmm.
Crystal:
<Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Libby:
And, and I guess I wonder how that lands with you.
Crystal:
Yeah, definitely. So my upbringing wasn't like that, like yours at all. It was a lot of, I'm taking care of other people. I'm doing what other people want for me, and my opinions and thoughts and things like that don't matter. And so when I got into my marriage, a lot of that happened to be, yeah. The same thing where I'm taking care of you and I don't have space or I don't have the confidence. And even when I did have the confidence to speak up and say, this is what I wanted, I got a negative reaction. So it was like, okay, I'm not important, you know, this is about other people, this is about my family, you know, I'm taking care of them. And so there is kind of this idea that by being independent and in my own space, I can speak up for myself more easily and be more confident and do self-care without that, that anxiety of how is the other person gonna respond? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Now sometimes those moments still come up when I'm talking to somebody and it's like, okay, like you said, negotiation can be hard. And it's like, I want to adjust something in our relationship, but it's a lot easier because I'm coming from a place of, okay. I've already had experience speaking up for myself, establishing those boundaries. So I know that if I set this boundary, whether it is turns out well or not, I, I have the confidence to be able to set that boundary.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and there's fewer consequences if you do. Right. And if it doesn't go well, you have some space and some distance and some protection based on the structure Mm-Hmm. So that if it doesn't go well, you know, you're not gonna have to see that person when you wake up in the morning to get your coffee. Yeah. You know, they can feel their feelings over there. And that gives you time to deal with your feelings and then you can come back together and talk about it.
Crystal:
Yeah. Definitely.
Libby:
Yeah. I'm wondering, crystal, I'm curious, 'cause you've said I'm softening a little bit on solo polyamory for myself, and I'm not so sure if that's like what I want for the rest of my life. And I guess I'm curious Yeah. If you'd be willing to share where you are now.
Crystal:
Yeah. so when I think about the rest of my life and solo polyamory, I feel that it might be easier to be in relationship with people in a nested situation just because of all the things that I've, I've, well, okay, so I'm, I'm disabled. I have executive de dysfunction. There are things in my life that would be easier if other people were able to help take care of me. Like right now, my mom helps with the dishes, <laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, she comes over and, and, and does the dishes and sometimes does the laundry. And when I think about acknowledging like my limitations, I want to be able to say, Hey, I need help with certain things. And right now, I don't ask my partners to help with those things because we're solo poly, they're all, let's see, some of them are nested, some of them are solo poly. So they all have their own obligations and things that they have to do. And there's just this layer of, if it comes to, even when it comes to emotional support, but mainly when it comes to kind of like household things, caretaking with my daughter, medical things, it's hard for me to think, oh, I should reach out and ask for help with these things. Mm-Hmm.
Libby:
<Affirmative>.
Crystal:
But when I think about nesting with someone, like you said, that's kind of built in. Some of that might be built in. I think we would, we would talk about it and negotiate it all, but it would be a lot easier. It would just make my life easier. And I would feel less, I would feel more supportive in doing my everyday task and then doing all these big things that I'm doing every day and out in the world. And so that's attractive to me on some level. The, all the, the cons to it are that it would be entanglement again. We'd have to talk about finances, we'd have to talk about, you know, just the household things, where we would live, things like that. Who I would be nesting with, you know, <laugh>, which partner would wanna move in, which partners might want to change how we're relating. So all those things come up for me. But yeah, mainly it's, it's relating to me recognizing that I do need a level of support that sometimes it's difficult to do when I'm alone. Yeah. Especially as I get older and have more ailments and things that I have to deal with.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. I think about that a lot too. Actually. I'm wondering though, and you know, I, I feel like this is out there but isn't talked about enough, is does it have to be a partner that would cohabit with you and have that like mutual care shared responsibility experience? Or could it be a friend? Or could it be like, I mean, I know you said your mom comes over Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> maybe you wouldn't wanna live with your mom, <laugh>, <laugh>, but I did for a time, actually, my husband and I lived with my mom for a long period of time and Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. There were a lot of benefits to having like three adults sharing the domestic load. And I mean, that's why it was easy for when my mom decided to move out and my other partner was already living with us. It was just sort of like, well, we already have extra adults, so it's like, it's normal for us. <Laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. To the point where I don't even know what I would do if I was just living with one other person one other adult. Like, it would just be weird. But I guess I wonder like, have you thought about like friends or other people in your life that aren't partners moving in? Well,
Crystal:
I've definitely thought about my mom. The thing with my friends is that I've had a weird relationship with friends and that I've mostly focused on having partners and those relationships. And so I'm building up my friend group, but none of them are like, I love my friends, but it's not at the point where I would say, Hey, I'm going to ask you for support with some of these things, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> driving to medical appointments is, is like me and my former partner John, he's my best friend now. So he's the only other person I would think, can you support me in, in these ways that I feel are more personal and more domestic, I guess.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, when I think about things like that, there is an intimacy in them for sure. Right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> like driving someone to a medical appointment or being there for them if they've had surgery you know, either at the hospital or when they get home, you know, and those kind of caregiving tasks. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> because they're, they're vulnerable, right?
Crystal:
Yeah, definitely.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. And so I can see that, like, we don't have a script for asking for that for people generally, I think. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it is sort of assumed in our culture that that is the role of the partner or role of family and, you know, for some people, especially like folks and but, and I think some poly folks too, or even people who just have lived, moved away from their family, that kind of, that kind of support isn't always available. And so we end up needing to expand what, what, what kind of support we can get. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's interesting, I do think some people look to partners for that as kind of expanding their, that kind of care network. I, I wonder, I mean, you say it's, maybe it's, it's, for you, it's just been a focus. Like I haven't cultivated those kinds of friendships yet. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and that you are cultivating them. But I guess, do you have any thoughts about like why generally? 'cause I think you're not alone. I think a lot of people don't have friendships like that and haven't cultivated friendships like that. I'm, and since you're part of the intentional community world, where I feel like there is a different like lens on, you know, interconnectedness. I'm curious if you have thoughts on that.
Crystal:
Well, part of it is that vulnerability that you talked about, and people not willing to say, this is a need that I have. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I know I'm an adult and I should have everything set up for me, blah, blah, blah. But I don't, so I need help. You know, it's really hard to say that to somebody that you're, you're not intimate with or that who isn't part of your family. The other part is that we just have this expectation of like, American individualism and I can do everything myself. And capitalism has made it really, really easy for us to just be like, okay, this is my space, this is my job. You know, even when it comes to like doctor's appointments and things like that. Like, you know, when I went to help my partner at a medical appointment is like, who are you? Are you a family member? Are you a partner? And it's just like that, that explanation, that kind of look of like, there's no, there's no space to put me put my name down. Right.
Libby:
Right.
Crystal:
So that makes it hard.
Libby:
Yeah. So I mean, it's even just in the wider culture of the, the me, the professionals that might be looking for who's this companion? Mm-Hmm. There's not, it's not Yeah, that makes sense. So it's like we aren't even taught to think about do we have a friend Mm-Hmm. Or, or someone else in our community who can be there for us.
Crystal:
Yeah.
Libby:
And yet, I, I wanna just name that some other solo poly folks that I know that is their family. Like that is the people who show up and do mutual aid. Like, one of the things that I think from some solo poly folks would, would say is, you know, I don't need to live with or cohabit with a partner or rely on my partners exclusively for mutual aid and care, because I do have that with my community, with my friends, with my with some other, like, some community that I'm like regularly a part of, whether it's like a dance community or a crafting community Mm-Hmm. Or a board gaming community or something like that. Like almost like church, you know, like Yeah. You know how like it, when people would go to church, they're, they would have like a committee who would be checking on all the members of the church and like, who's, who's going into the hospital this week? Or whose mom might've died and who might need a casserole train or something like that. Mm-Hmm.
Crystal:
<Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Libby:
And so when I think about that, I think like, that's not very individualistic. You know, there is this like community, like holding all of the people in it. I wish we could have things like that without the oppressive control of behavior and ostracization of queerness and <laugh>.
Crystal:
Right. Right. Yeah. I think that's great that people are able to create those community that found family Mm-Hmm. Around themselves that people that can lean on. I'm just a kind of an awkward person, so I don't <laugh>, I don't build those communities. I don't fit into those communities as easily as I'd like to.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and it is, it's, it's hard when that is the case, right? When like, the communities that already exist are places where it's hard to find belonging and then building your own. I don't think you're odd at all for building your own being a, a pretty onerous task. I think it is. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> it is an onerous task to build your own. I think a lot of people are in that boat. Yeah. Well, I'm wondering, I feel like we're coming to a close, but I guess I'm wondering if there are people listening who are thinking about solo polyamory, what would be your parting words to them? What would you want them to know?
Crystal:
It's a way to be independent, like we were just talking about. Mm-Hmm. But it's also about choice and that you're choosing the connections that you have and how to make those connections. And none of it is, there's no default solo poly template for people. Right. So everything has to be negotiated and decided and agreed to buy your partners. And even when you're, when you have kind of like the the descriptive hierarchy, you're still choosing who's gonna be connected to me in this way and who I'm connected to in this way, how I'm spending time with people. So I think the benefits of solo polyamory is that it forces you to make those decisions actively. And then if you decide that it's not for you, there's, there's nothing wrong with deciding to move in with people and having those nesting partnerships, getting married, like I said, getting divorced is the worst. <Laugh> <laugh>. But, you know, I think making those decisions are completely valid and are, are right for certain people. So.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, I really appreciate that last thing you said too. And I would add to it, like you said, you know, if you step into solo polyamory, it's not like it's a religion that you've baptized yourself into <laugh>. Like you can change, you can also modify it so that it's, you know, I I, I do think there are actually some gatekeeper people out there on the internet who might tell you whatever, if you say you're solo poly, but you're living with someone or doing something that looks, you know, something different, they'll be like, that's not solo polyamory <laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But honestly, truly, there's not a real gatekeeper out there that's gonna tell you what you're doing is not the real thing. Whatever it is. Because I think the principles, if I'm hearing you right, are choice and independence and not assumed entanglements. Right. Like, nothing gets to be assumed, and therefore everything has to be negotiated and chosen. And, and I think that's, that's a lesson that I think you could carry forward even into monogamous marriage, honestly, because of all the ways we've talked about how monogamous marriage, when we're just folding into stuff and rolling into stuff and dripping into stuff that it might not actually be serving us to do that.
Crystal:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, crystal, thanks for being here with me and having this lovely conversation. I'm wondering if people want to know more about you and find your work, where might they go?
Crystal:
So I have a website, crystalbyrdfarmer.com. I am on the internet. I have social media handles. I think my, let me, I'll just send you,
Libby:
Yeah, I'll put it on the show note. Okay.
Crystal:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I have a website, crystalbyrdfarmer.com, and I am in different spaces as a writer. I, I, I've published a book and then I'm on social media. So there's different ways to kind of see the work that I'm doing. I'm usually speaking at conferences, whether it's intentional communities, conferences or sex positive conferences.
Libby:
And you do diversity consulting, right? Yeah,
Crystal:
I do diversity consulting. So I am available to talk to nonprofit organizations, community organizations intentional communities and help them understand how to be more inclusive.
Libby:
Beautiful.
Crystal:
Yeah.
Libby:
Well, thank you for being with me today.
Crystal:
Yeah. I really appreciate talking to you.
