Polyamory and Neurodivergence with Alyssa Gonzalez Pt. 1
Libby and Alyssa discuss being neurodiverse and how polyamory and being neurodiverse can complement each other beautifully.
Transcript
Today I have a special guest I am welcoming on making polyamory work. Alyssa Gonzalez, who is a biology PhD public speaker, and the author of Non-Monogamy and Neurodiversity, which is her first published book. Alyssa also writes fiction, and she uses science fiction and fantasy elements to explore social isolation, autism, gender trauma, and the relationships between all of these things. Her nonfiction writing ranges from molecular biology to urbanism, and she lives in Ottawa, Canada with a menagerie of pets and can confirm that when we had our call, I got to see many creatures in her space.
Libby:
This episode is part one of two of Alyssa's and my conversation because as it turns out, the conversation about non-monogamy and neurodiversity is a rich one. And we definitely don't even come close to covering everything that I would want to cover <laugh>. But I got so many questions from listeners to talk about the intersection of non-monogamy and neurodiversity. And I'll just say that there are two things that are true, which is that as Alyssa points out in this episode, non-monogamy and neurodiversity kind of go together like peanut butter and jelly. And also being neurodivergent makes all relationships a little bit challenging. And so having more relationships and more complexity has its own unique challenges for non-monogamous folks, I am just so thrilled to be introducing you to Alyssa if you haven't encountered her before. And so let's just dive in, shall we? Part one of two on non-monogamy and neurodiversity. So today on making polyamory work, I have Alyssa Gonzalez joining me here today. And together we're going to answer a listener question. But before we do that, I just wanna, Alyssa, I wanna give you a chance to introduce yourself. I mean, I've already introduced you in the intro, but I always like to let people speak a little bit about themselves. What would you like folks listening to know about you?
Alyssa:
Hi. Well, my name is Alyssa Gonzalez and I'm a happy cat owner, in addition to having a biology PhD career as a writer, a large collection of Beast wars, transformers, and <laugh>. Let's see. Oh, and I wrote a book right? In case all of that didn't imply enough. I am also autistic. <Laugh> <laugh>.
Libby:
Yeah. And y'all can't see it, but I can see that Alyssa has a feline friend that has been making some appearances in our call <laugh>, which
Alyssa:
Is great. Yeah. Yeah. This girl knows when I'm on camera because I don't usually talk to myself while sitting at my desk otherwise. And she likes being on camera, don't she?
Libby:
Well, cool. Well, I'm so glad that you're here and it's been really nice getting to know you. The last time we talked was really great, and I was like, We actually absolutely have you on the show, <laugh>. So the main reason why I invited you here was because I did get more than one actually question from a listen from a few listeners just like wanting me to talk about being neurodiverse and being non-monogamous or polyamorous, and like, how do those two things go together? And I think that's come up because I've disclosed that I am myself not neurotypical and how that it, it has been an evolving process for me. I'm sure it has. I think I, I think I've heard that it, that it was has for you too, sort of been an unfolding. I think maybe like six or seven years ago, one of my friends suggested that I might have ADHD, and I was like, but I don't, I'm not hyperactive.
Libby:
So, and then I started looking into, and I have great attention span Then I started looking into what it really meant to have ADHD, and it's a very poorly named diagnosis <laugh>. Exactly. So I looked into it, and then I started to checking all the boxes. And so I talked to a therapist and she was like, yep, yep. That, that's, that is, that sounds all accurate. So I have that going on. And then a few years ago, one of my children started having some difficulty at school. And, you know, we were like, oh my gosh, are we bad parents? Like, what's going on? And then, you know, ultimately we started to understand that, you know, his brain worked differently and we started looking into autism spectrum disorders and really started understanding, oh no, his brain just works differently. <Laugh>, and, and this is how it works. And then we started looking into the criteria for that. And then basically me and all, all of my partners kind of were going, well, that kind of sounds like us <laugh>,
Alyssa:
So Yeah. We, we find each other.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a mating. We we do assortative mating and yeah. So we and Assortative friending as well. And so, yeah. So I, I, you know, we, I think everyone in this house is some flavor of neurodiverse, and so here we are. And so I think since I've disclosed in various formats that I am not typical other folks have been like, oh, would you talk about that? And I was like, I would love to, but I would love to bring someone else to talk about it too. So here's Alyssa.
Alyssa:
It's an honor and a privilege.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, I guess I'd love for you to share a little bit about, you know, where you're coming from on, on, on this.
Alyssa:
So I've always been pretty dang weird <laugh>.
Libby:
Same hard, same
Alyssa:
And it wasn't until well into adulthood as my friend circle started to take a certain shape and people were like, you, you know, you, you should, you should think about this. 'cause You keep saying, you're not one of us, but we think you're one of us. And, and then I looked into it more and I'm like, oh, that explains so much. I can stop rereading this, the pages on Wikipedia about various personality disorders now, because I finally have a name for this thing. Okay. Okay.
Libby:
And I'm curious, and, and you can pass on this question. And we can edit it out if you don't wanna answer. But would you, are you self-diagnosed autistic, or are you diagnosed by a psychologist? It doesn't actually matter to me. <Laugh>, and I'll go ahead and disclose. I'm self-diagnosed. But and I still think I'm pretty autistic, but I guess I'm curious how, how, how you really came to truly fully accept that about yourself.
Alyssa:
So I am self-diagnosed. I did extensive reading on the experiences of other autistic people, online, self-diagnosed and otherwise, and found a great deal of similarity there. I found their advice for how to deal with a neurotypical worlds instructive. And as someone coming to that realization as an adult, there words, there is very limited value to being formally diagnosed. There just isn't that much out there I would have access to with a formal diagnosis that I couldn't get by just reading the same stuff I read to figure myself out. And on top of that, as an immigrant, navigating Canada's immigration process, being formally diagnosed would've been a sizable demerit that would've greatly complicated my arrival in this country.
Libby:
Wow.
Alyssa:
Did not pursue that. Missed out on some potential accommodations in academia while I was still pursuing my studies as a result. But, but I got to stay in the country. So I'm, I'm gonna take that deal.
Libby:
<Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that you, that's exactly how I feel about self-diagnosis, which is that, I mean, it really depends on what you're using it for, whether, whether that matters or not. And I mean, I would say for me, same deal, like for, for me to use strategies that work for autistic people, for me to think about my brain in a particular way, for me to support myself and ask for the support that I need, I don't actually, like, need a formal diagnosis. 'cause It, like what is that gonna give me, like you said now, if I was gonna go back to school and I wanted some Americans with disability act accommodations. Sure. And, you know, and, and my kid, he does need accommodations. And, and at the same time, I, I feel complicated even about that because sometimes when you slap a label on somebody, then they just start to see everything you do and everything you are in a particular way. So it's, it's a complicated, it's a complicated thing for, for him. But I think for the most part, like it's something we all kind of wear with pride around here. <Laugh>. So, definitely. Yeah. Well, so you've written a book and just to reiterate again, it is called
Alyssa:
Non-Monogamy and Neurodiversity more than two Essentials Guide.
Libby:
Yeah.
Libby:
So in that book, you're talking about how, how neurodiversity and non-monogamy can go together. and, you know, so, and that's, that's what my listeners were asking about. So let's, can we get into that? Can we start talking about how those two things go together when they do, when they don't?
Alyssa:
Absolutely. If, if there's one thing I want listeners to leave this conversation firmly convinced of, it's that these two aspects of a person fit together better than the neurotypical mainstream could ever imagine. Like this is a match made in the whatever place peanut butter and jam first met each other. That it's like we as neurodivergent people gravitate toward all sorts of non-mainstream things. Look at every quote unquote weird hobby community. You'll find us by the truckload. Like, it's, it's just how it works. the mainstream that proves day in and day out, that it is not for us and doesn't particularly want us. And from there, we make our exits to all sorts of non-normative communities. Whether that means we turn out to be furries or renfair enthusiasts, or people that collect war hammer 40K figurines, or people who are really into fantasy football or, you know, whatever the weird hobby of the day is mixed in, in those non-normative communities are things like not being monogamous. We are the exact people best positioned to figure out just how absolutely bizarre the social structure of monogamy as a social institution is. And to think that might a minute that doesn't make sense, that doesn't work for most of us. Everyone hates that part, but also hates the people who point that out more for some reason. And just, and in between all that we figure out like, wait, we could just not do that.
Libby:
Yeah. And that's, you know, that, that's interesting. So, I mean, what I hear there is in, in your mind, it's not just that Yes. You can be neurodivergent and Polyamorous or non-monogamous, but that in your mind it is a really good fit. Like, it's a really, it like, it it is the, it is, it is a relationship style that would be really, really, really fitting for folks who are just not typical how they think and how their brain works.
Alyssa:
Exactly. It, it is an extraordinarily natural fit for so, so many of us. And a big part of that is that all these, the social heuristics that the neurotypical people can just sort of quietly internalize and not even like, realize they've done it like that, doesn't really happen for a lot of us. even if it does, it can just not feel right for a lot of us, because we can see the places where they don't really work necessarily.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's like our, I I, I feel like the, the, I mean, this is my experience at least. And you know what they say, you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. But my experience has always been like, if you say one thing, but then you do another thing, I have a real hard time with that. Right? Or if you say, this is really great, but then I'm watching it and I'm going, it doesn't look great.
Alyssa:
Libby:
<Laugh>, you know, I, I'm not capable of like holding something that clearly seems untrue alongside, you know, just 'cause everybody else is saying it's true. And and I think that, that, I think that is a feature of a lot of non-normative folks. I mean, it's like, you know, when someone asks you, you know, Hey Lisa, how are you doing today? You know, you know what you're supposed to say, right? You're supposed to say, fine. Yep. But I have to work like super overtime to say, fine because you just asked me a question, how am I doing today? Well, actually, I'm like exhausted and there's a lot going on <laugh>, and, you know, and, and really, I just wanna lie down right now, and I'm a little overwhelmed by, you know, the attacks on trans and gay rights in my country, you know? But nobody wants to hear that. They just wanna hear fine <laugh>
Alyssa:
<Laugh>. Yeah. But
Libby:
They asked, you know, they asked, yeah.
Alyssa:
You know, my mental compromise is to have like a, a sliding scale of mental honesty depending on how much longer I want them to keep talking to me. <Laugh>
Libby:
Yeah.
Alyssa:
From, not from, from not so bad to, and here's this the screwed up thing that happened to me today.
Libby:
Yeah. But I feel like there's so many things like that, like you said, these unwritten rules that we're expected to follow. Oh.
Alyssa:
So many
Libby:
That we're like, but like, you're literally asking for the thing that you don't want And then you're expecting us to just know not to do that thing. And it doesn't compute the, I mean, I can, but I wanna say I can hold, and the capacity for unspoken rules, I really can especially if it has been spelled out to me, at some point, I have the ability to say, okay, that's an unspoken rule that we're gonna follow here. Cool. I can do that. But it's, when it's an unspoken rule that doesn't make sense, doesn't seem to serve anybody, and I'm still expected to do it and not talk about it. To your point about what you said, like if you talk about it, people get annoyed with you <laugh>.
Alyssa:
Yeah. It, it's all so absolutely bizarre. Like, why does the neurotypical mainstream want me to stop looking at the other beautiful people out in the world? If one of them is holding my hand and I I don't have enough hands. I'm sorry. <Laugh>. <laugh>.
Libby:
Right, right. Well, and so I guess Like, let's, Let's dig a little deeper here, because I'm you know, one thing that you said that I really liked was I mean, you said it in a couple different ways. First of all, you said that those of us who tend to be on the the autistic spectrum or tend to be And I think this, I think that folks who are, who have a DHD fall into this category too, that we tend to be weird, you know? We tend to be weird in some other ways, not just Yeah. Weird. And the fact that like, you know, we don't pick up easily on social norms. And the ones that don't make sense to us, maybe we don't wanna do <laugh>
Alyssa:
<Laugh>,
Libby:
But like, there are other ways in which we're weird and what I'm hearing from you is like, that there's this journey of sort of embracing your weirdness as opposed to telling yourself that you need to squeeze into some previously defined package of what a human is supposed to be and how you're, what you're supposed to want, what you're supposed to do, how you're supposed to love.
Alyssa:
Libby:
And I guess I'm, this might be, 'cause I'm just making up that people listening might be somewhere on that journey. if they're thinking about non-monogamy, right. That one of the things that might be holding them back. In fact, I actually had a friend tell me this one time I was telling Her about I invited her to a party actually with a bunch of my poly friends And she hit it off with one of 'em and was thinking, That she might date this person. And then, and then she looks at me and she goes, but Libby, Libby, like, all of y'all are so weird, and I just wanna be normal. I just wanna be normal. I don't, I'm, I'm worried about being too weird. <Laugh>. And and I, I, I remember distinctly her fear of like, if I get too connected into this community of people, then I'll lose like access to some of the privileges of being perceived as normal. And I guess I'm wondering what, I don't know, what do you, what do you think about that
Alyssa:
As someone who has rarely felt like she had access to any of that? I, yeah. We make, do <laugh>. I, I'm, I'm never gonna get invited to whatever kinds of parties, the people who wear polo shirts and then have a sweater on their bag tied in front. I, they're never gonna invite me to their parties. I don't, I don't even know what I'm missing on that front un
Libby:
Unless it's a costume party. Right.
Alyssa:
I, I shudder to imagine a party where that, this is a costume. Someone would wear <laugh> far too scary <laugh>. So, I mean, hypothetically, that person could be missing out on like whatever high level networking they pe the super rich white people manage if that person is, is too goth in public or whatever. Like, but I never had access to any of that. 'cause Hispanic and my family isn't an awkward middle income area. And, and I was entirely too weird, even from a very young age to get into any of those social spheres. But I'm doing okay for myself. And not trying to hide my weirdness meant that when people actually wanted to be around me, that it was people who wanted to be around me and not some pretend person that I was, you know, constructing for other people's benefits so that they'd keep inviting me to parties where caviar gets served or whatever it is this person's afraid of.
Libby:
No, it's interesting that you equate normalcy with, well, whiteness, you didn't say whiteness, but I would say that's probably true. and, and wealth. I think that's real interesting.
Alyssa:
I'm just trying to imagine what, what this person could be afraid of losing.
Libby:
Yeah.
Alyssa:
And
Libby:
Yeah. I mean, she really likes football. <Laugh>, I don't know. But I mean,
Alyssa:
I refuse to believe that the person who invented fantasy football was neurotypical
Libby:
<Laugh>. Well, I don't think she likes fantasy football. I think she just likes watching football. And hockey. She likes hockey a lot. But, you know I mean, I'll tell you long story short she's totally embraced All of those things, you know, non-monogamy. I think the last time I checked in with her, she was like, yeah, I think I'm autistic <laugh>. So I mean, <laugh>.
Alyssa:
Yeah. Yeah. We find each other. We
Libby:
Find each other. We do. Yeah.
Alyssa:
We don't so much get di diagnosed as the become autistic by peer review mirror, as I can tell.
Libby:
<Laugh>. No, no. But maybe we should. Right. <laugh>. Well, and I think that particularly people who are in the, like, millennial like millennial slash older Millennial slash Gen X generation, like the diagnostic criteria for autism changed while we were like teenagers or older or or younger. Yeah. But, but, but before we were like in the zone To really have that aspect of ourselves notice and acknowledged. And also it, you know, the way the, the, even even the current diagnostic criteria Doesn't necessarily take, I don't know if I would've been picked up as being noticed that I had any problems. Yeah.
Alyssa:
Well, my grades were entirely too good. Yeah,
Libby:
Exactly. They
Alyssa:
Kept evaluating me over and over again, and they're like, no, this person's not broken enough. What are you talking about?
Libby:
Well, right. Because it's a deficit model. Although, you know, when we were looking at at, at a diagnosable we're causing it. We're calling it a disorder rather than a difference. we're calling it you know, you have to have enough things wrong with you to, and enough challenges To get the diagnosis, because the point of the diagnosis to get accommodation instead of it just being a tool to help you understand yourself and understand your place in the world and how you can care for yourself and ask for care from others. So, Yeah.
Alyssa:
Yeah. And, and that gets me to one of the ways in which the non-monogamy as a model for thinking about relationships is particularly well-suited for a lot of us, because the mainstream makes a lot of assumptions about what relationships are supposed to look like. We're supposed to, that the, a certain amount of engaged with each other and only each other. And then after a couple years of that, you ask them to enter into a, a legal union that might merge your households and finances, and they, and you move in together. And some amount of time after that, you start putting your gametes together too. And, and just, it's just this, this escalation. And there's this expectation whenever you reach one step that you're gonna reach the other ones unless something goes horribly wrong and the whole relationship falls apart. And like, I don't want other people living in my house forever. Yeah. I, I'm very particular about where all the things are <laugh> and whether I have access to the bathroom. And
Libby:
Well, and I think to you, the important point about that is it's all non negotiated. Right. It's all sort of expected.
Alyssa:
Exactly.
Libby:
and, You know, I mean, even in mainstream, like, you know, I work with a lot of couples therapists who you know, work with, you know, monogamous couples, more conventional relationships. And, you know, one of the pieces of advice even amongst you know, the most normative of normative couples is take some of those implicit agreements and make them explicit. Yes. Because, you know, what you think might be cheating, for example, might not be what your partner thinks is cheating. Like, I was dating a guy who thought cheating was me going skinny, dipping in a hot tub with my friends if there was anybody there of the opposite sex.
Alyssa:
Yeah. They're always
Libby:
Like that. Which is hilarious. 'cause 'cause I'm not straight, so like, I'm, so it wouldn't for me, the gender of the people in the hot <laugh> don't matter. And also like what people observe of my physical form has nothing to do with but anyway, it was a whole thing. We did not last that, that relationship did not last. I he's a sweet guy, but it was not, it was not for me.
Alyssa:
<Laugh>. Yeah. But quite frankly, the people who did, whose concept of cheating cares about what gender your company is are innately biphobic <laugh> as far as I'm concerned.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and, and Well, I mean, by erasing as well, you know? It's just assuming Yeah. Whole thing. Yeah.
Alyssa:
It just plays into that meme that goes around sometimes. Like we don't have friends only way <laugh>
Libby:
<Laugh>. I like that. I like that. It's funny. Well, well, and I mean, so I think the point you're making here is that because when you're doing non-monogamy, you, there are no more assumptions. Right.
Alyssa:
Exactly. You've, you've blown all the heuristics wide open. And now, because none of them apply anymore, some of them are just outright incoherence when you try to apply them to this kind of model. Everything has to be explicitly laid out and you get to figure out what's actually important to you and what, what your hard lines are, which ones aren't, what different models of how to organize all these things might work. Right. That, that's amazing. Like it's it is difficult to overstate just how incredible that is and how much the fact that this is just how it has to work in a model. This non-normative translates to therapists have to tell all the neurotypical couples to be more like us, to make them function better.
Libby:
Right. Isn't that funny? But it's true. It's really true. It's really true. A lot of the, like you said, a lot of the things that Yeah. Couples therapists teach their couples is like how to explicitly negotiate how to say what you want Out loud instead of just hope hinting around and hoping they'll pick up, pick up on it. And it's, it's, it's hilarious. But, but yeah. Like, if you want to be in a non-normative structure there, you can't be implicit about stuff, at least not initially you can be implicit about it. Once you've developed your new, what did you say? Heuristic? Like once you've developed sort of your new rubric of like, this is how we do things Exactly. We get to have some expectations that maybe this principle would also apply over here, you know?
Libby:
But then you kind of, but you've co-created that Exactly. That, that way of functioning that system and how it's gonna work. And for my brain, good lord. Like just having things spelled out. <laugh> is so, is so important because there are so many ways in which people give mixed messages where people were raised, you know, from in different cultures, and so they just have different like different unspoken things have different meanings depending on where you grew up, how, how much unpacking of patriarchy you've done, et cetera, et cetera. And so, just to have it all spelled out, I'm like, whew. Thank God, <laugh>.
Alyssa:
Yeah. It is such early, especially when it's all a replacement for social rules with weird implications that never made a whole lot of sense in the first place.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that.
Alyssa:
Getting to not only find other people that are willing to meet you where you actually are, instead of expecting you to climb handover fist on, off up the side of the mountain of other people's nonsense. It's, it just, it's, it's so beautiful and
Libby:
Well, and do you think that because we're, we're coming into relationship expecting things to have to be negotiated and expecting that we're gonna meet everybody's gonna try to meet each other where we're at instead of, like you said, one person having to acco like conform to a norm. Do you think that that means that there's, there's a, a greater willingness to acom, like be accommodating? to like, like, like when I think about like what you're saying about like, I don't want, I don't wanna live with a partner forever. Like, I don't want the, the requirement for me to be in partnership with someone to be cohabiting because that doesn't work for me, or it doesn't work for me right now. Yeah. And, do you find that then when you're, when you have kind of the, the smorgasbord of different types of re ways of relating that people are more accepting of that as a limit? Like, I don't wanna live with people and people don't go, oh, well then I'm just gonna write you off. And instead you find people who are like, awesome <laugh> me neither. I don't wanna Yeah. <Laugh>.
Alyssa:
It is much, much easier as a very out neurodivergent person to find other people with similar hangups. And in non-monogamy, like very few of us are living in like grand poly communes with everyone that any of us is dating. And if you start diagramming who's connected to who in a polyamorous arrangement, there's a lot of people with only one line connecting them to the rest on the outside, because that's how people meet. That's how networks of human contact work. So almost by necessity, people are going to date people that aren't currently living in their homes. And where causing them to start living in your home is going to be impractical. So there's an acceptance that this is just part of the package in a non-monogamous setting. Some people deeply idealize getting all their partners under one roof. And as someone who is generally like, not necessarily connected to everyone that my partners are also dating, I, I, it boggles my mind that other people can make that model work, but like, just outta sheer logistics. But if it works for them, I'm delighted. But for a lot of us, non-monogamy presents this amazing opportunity to, and not have the expectation that being in love with someone means you're planning on sharing a home in three years.
Libby:
Well, or any of those kind of assumptions. Right? And, I mean, but I think what you just said there kind of speaks to I don't know how much this comes up for you when you're talking to people or who are new or considering non-monogamy, but a thing that I've run into is, is kind of what my friend said initially. which is like, I'm worried if I am too picky or if I have too many non-normative needs, or if I'm too different, then that means I won't be able to find somebody who's, who's willing to do that with me. You know, we, we say to ourselves like, relationships are about compromise. We all have to sacrifice to be with people that we care about. And so we might not get everything we want. And I mean, I've just seen, I've seen this a lot, people being afraid to like fully be who they are because they're afraid that that's gonna mean that nobody wants them.
Libby:
You know? And what I heard from you is That actually, the more I am myself and the more I'm loud about it, the more I'm able to find people who dig that about me and who are interested In creating the kind of relationships that I can actually live happily in. I just, that's how I feel too, that like Yeah. If you shine your light about who you really, really are bright as hell. Yeah. It is gonna repel a lot of people. There are gonna be people who are gonna be like, Oh, I definitely wanna live with someone, so that's not a good fit for me. Or I'm definitely don't want that many animals in my house. Like, or whatever. Right? But like, if you shine who you are really brightly, then the people who are looking for someone like you
Alyssa:
Yeah.
Libby:
Are gonna find you. And that means you'll repel all the people that wouldn't have been a good fit anyway. <Laugh>.
Alyssa:
Yeah. Demographics can mean both versions carry truth. Especially in places, places where the local dating pool is relatively small and the polyamorous dating pool is always a lot smaller than the monogamous one. For now,
Libby:
For now.
Alyssa:
Waha,
Libby:
I'm just kidding. <Laugh> <laugh>.
Alyssa:
The, this can lead a person to having to reevaluate know which of their lines are, are, should be as hard as they currently are. But one of the other beauties about establishing a non-monogamous relationship is that the pressure for one person you find to suddenly be all the things you're looking for is dramatically lower.
Libby:
Right.
Alyssa:
And you can, the potential to indulge different aspects of yourself with different people. And they might also, they might, the ones you find might be super into not having to be the one person who does that thing that you do with your other partners. Right. Maybe this person you mentioned earlier who's really into football will find a partner who does not find football Interesting. And a different one who, who wears a football helmet everywhere. 'cause They're that into football. And I don't, I don't know what people who are into football are like, I'm sorry, <laugh>.
Libby:
That's okay. <Laugh>. I don't really either. I don't really either. I, I was only excited about the Super Bowl 'cause Rihanna was doing the halftime show. Hmm. And then I just watched the YouTube of that the next day. Yeah.
Alyssa:
<Laugh> and that's how it's done.
Libby:
Yeah. Ex Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and and I
Alyssa:
Feel like Super Bowl is is that time when commercials are briefly interesting. Right? <laugh>,
Libby:
<Laugh> <laugh>. Well, and, and I feel like we're in a time now actually where you know, because of technology, because of the internet. Like, even if we can't easily find each other at the local bar or whatever, I mean, I've literally never met a person that I've dated at a bar, but apparently this is a thing that people do. But like, even if you can't meet, you know, the right fit for you at the local bar or at the village square or whatever
Alyssa:
,
Libby:
You have the opportunity to put yourself out there and be real clear about who you are online. And sometimes it might be You know, on an app and you're, you're able to find all of the people who, you know, resonate with what you're looking for. Especially as the apps kind of get more specialized. I don't know, I'm curious what you think of that. Yes. But I'll get to that in a minute.
Alyssa:
Libby:
But then also, like, I've heard so many stories of people finding each other long distance and then changing where they live so that they can be together. And I just, I think that's really interesting. And I guess I'm, I'm, you know, 'cause because I do think that that fear of, well, if I fully embrace this part of myself, unless I already have a primary partner that I'm doing this with, which that is one group of people that are like that. But I think it's important to think about the people who are not like that, who are embracing this just in and of themselves and they're taking a risk. you know, I'm gonna say I'm non-monogamous and I'm gonna put myself out into the dating pool and I'm already, I already feel like I'm a weirdo, you know? I already, am I gonna be narrowing my dating pool further? maybe instead you'll be able to, like you said, find more people who can be a, a, a network of support for you. And also find different people who have your special interests because it, you know, finding someone where all your special interests are gonna line up, that shouldn't even be allowed. you know, <laugh>
Alyssa:
<Laugh>
Alyssa:
Yeah. But that's when you get neighbors complaining that the level of enthusiasm in your house is too high. And could you be less happy about everything? Yeah.
Libby:
Well, you just never leave. You'll just never go, you'll never go, go outside. And I guess that might be a joy for some people. Like finally, I don't have to leave the house anymore <laugh>. But I just, I guess I, you know. I guess I'm curious what you would say about how the role technology has played for you in being able to feel more comfortable about these aspects of yourself.
Alyssa:
I'm not convinced I would've figured out a lot of things about myself without the, the internet and the forms it has taken in the various years I've been using it. Goodness. It's taken a lot of different forms in the years I've been using it. <Laugh>. It's, once I figured out that that social media profiles are a great big giant billboard of all the stuff you want people to know before they start talking to you, I, that made it so much easier to screen the world for people that are, would actually find it interesting to continue talking to me so I don't have to spend 20 minutes figuring out that I don't enjoy their company individually. I don't have time for that. <Laugh>.
Libby:
Yeah. Who does? It's a, it's like a endless job Interviews.
Alyssa:
Pretty
Libby:
Much. And also giving people, and also giving people like repeated opportunities to reject you as well. And I don't know about you. I do not have rejection sensitivity dysphoria but a lot of Neurodiverse folks do. And for those who don't know what that is, it is what it sounds like. It is just a deep sensitivity to any kind of negative feedback from another human being. Like, none of us likes it. Nobody enjoys rejection. But for people who have RSD it can be like completely dysregulating to experience rejection. you know, so I can understand like what you said, like being able to give people the opportunity to reject you but not be in front of you <laugh>, and give you the opportunity to reject them, you know, before they're in front of you. Saves a lot of time, but also some heartache.
Alyssa:
Absolutely. And RSD is one of the big neurodivergent challenges that we bring to non-monogamy for a lot of reasons. They, on top of non-monogamy being a reason to keep on putting oneself out there even after they've successfully partnered and therefore exposing one to that many more possibilities for rejection. being non-monogamous requires a lot of potentially tense conversations about heavy emotional topics because we can't rely on any of those heuristics from earlier and have to co-create our personal realities. And that can be tense. That that can be challenging. Receiving feedback one doesn't like in that sort of conversation can be quite destabilizing for someone who is inclined to react very strongly to negative feedback. So this is a field of human activity. We're having some coping mechanisms for RSD is very important. Like there's, there's not really any getting around that.
Libby:
Yeah. What do you know about what's, what's what you know, has been supportive for people who, who have RSD who struggle with that or even just don't like rejection and have a, like, like you said, are like, wait, I have to put myself out there and then keep putting myself out there and keep putting myself out there <laugh>. And then also deal with my partner putting themselves out there and feeling that discomfort. Ooh.
Alyssa:
I mean, I mean the putting oneself out there is more or less optional. Like there's, there's no poly council that's gonna vote you off the island if you don't collect enough partners fast enough or anything like that. Like
Libby:
That is true. That is true. That's important for people to know. You can be polyamorous and only dating one person that is Yep. Polyamorous is a, a way in which you want to relate, not necessarily the structure you have to be operating. I mean, it's both, but Yeah. Yeah.
Alyssa:
And as far as I'm concerned, anyone who can become aware that their partner is seeing someone else and not pitch a fit or try to end the relationship over it has already escaped the worst strictures of what monogamy is in our society, regardless of what they are or aren't doing with other people. So, so that's, so that's one big thing that like, if it feels like too much trouble to keep looking for more, like you don't have to, like that's
Libby:
True.
Alyssa:
You could decide it's not worth it. And maybe you're even right. Like this, this, this is your emotional landscape. You get to p prune it however you please <laugh>.
Libby:
That's true. That's true. Well, before we go into some of, some of the challenges, 'cause rsd iss definitely a challenge and, and, and also some strategies on how to overcome some of those challenges. I guess I'm curious if we can loop back to Yeah. If there's anything else that you can think of that are thing reasons why you would say non-monogamy or polyamory and, being neurodiverse go really well together. I mean, we've talked about like having to explicitly negotiate things. People who like to explicitly negotiate things and have special interests being drawn to each other. Being able to find people who are willing to meet you where you are, accept you as you are, and you understanding that that's your, your job too. instead of us twisting ourselves into a pretzel to make a relationship that we're just not made for work. Is there anything else that you'd say, this is a hardcore benefit. And this is why you should really consider, I mean, 'cause it sounds like you're almost an evangelist. If you're not, if you're not neurotypical, maybe you should consider a non-monogamy <laugh>. Maybe that would be the best thing for you, is what I'm hearing. <Laugh>. So not
Alyssa:
All trying to increase my dating pool <laugh>.
Libby:
I mean, I do think that you're trying, you do have a, you do have the, the polyamorous agenda. It sounds like <laugh>. I'm for it. How do I sign up for your campaign fund? Anyway, carry on. I appreciate
Alyssa:
That. So, so another big benefit I find is neurodivergent people get a lot of unpleasant reactions from the mainstream, especially when we're younger. And a lot of it comes down to not really respecting our autonomy. They we're often considered too weird to have our wishes respected. And, and there's a lot of parents of neurodivergent kids who haven't heard that word in particular, who think that if they're just rude and unpleasant enough about the weird stuff their kid wants, their kid's gonna stop wanting it. Or at least stop saying it out loud. And there's just this general sense for a lot of us that we don't really get to exist as fully independent people with control over so much as what side of the sink our toothbrush is on until we're living alone. And like, and that's when we get to, you know, finally have light fixtures that don't burn our eyes or flicker us into headaches.
Alyssa:
And when we get to not have the blankets that make us all scratchy and all, just all this long list of little things that when people we live with don't respect us, we just have to suffer. And then, and then you move out for university or your first job in a new town or whatever, and you're finally living by yourself and you are now the curator of your entire personal space, that is a level of freedom that is very difficult to compromise with later after enduring all of that. And so inviting someone else to become long-term part of your space, or leaving that space behind to join theirs can be like profoundly disorienting because you have to figure out then how much of them are they allowed to express without it being an infringement on you. And in a standard monogamous relationship escalator model, you just have to deal with that because they expect that you two are going to live together. And if you don't put that option on the table, that means you're not serious about their relationship and they have social approval to abandon you and look elsewhere.
Libby:
Yeah.
Alyssa:
But in a non-monogamous model, a lot of the time you living with them isn't on the table anyway because their kitchen table only has so many seats around it. <Laugh>. And, and you're allowed to insist on maintaining your own home either way. Like it's, there isn't the same expectation that you have to live together at some point, if the relationship is serious, you can have a partner for decades and have both of you maintain your separate homes because that feels right for both of you. Yeah. And so you get to have the hard one freedom that you were not getting when you had parents that didn't think that your unusual wishes were worth respecting. You get to have the kind of home that that one girlfriend you had said you would have to stop having because she likes to have loud music on while she's cleaning or whatever. Mm. Like your space gets to be your own in, in ways that it can't be if you have a long-term person in your home who's, who also has it as theirs. Right. Yeah.
Libby:
I mean, I feel like what you're talking about here is coercion, self coercion, and, and acceptance of other people coercing you into living in a way you don't want because of norms. Right? So it's like if you're exiting norms anyway you can say no to any kind of coercion, you know? And that doesn't mean you don't compromise or negotiate. 'cause Sometimes you do. Exactly. Sometimes, you know, you put on headphones when your girlfriend wants to have loud music in the house, like then they don't. But then your girlfriend doesn't make fun of you for having the headphones. 'cause There's mutual respect
Alyssa:
Exactly.
Libby:
For each other's needs. and And it is so interesting that, that we would, that you and I, and I would, I would be in the same boat that we would equate monogamy with that kind of coercion. But it really, but because monogamy is the presumed norm and it comes with it all these other presumed norms which you laid out. Yeah. It is coerced. Right. Because we're shown, we're we're told it's the only option. And so it's, it's compulsory the same way heterosexuality is compulsory the way some people feel like parenting is compulsory. Although parenting is an interesting one. 'cause I feel like compulsory parenting, but also like zero support for actually being a parent. So making it like extremely unattractive, but <laugh>. So, you know, if you exit the paradigm That it's okay to coerce someone to live in a particular way based on a norm, then well then you get to take care of yourself. And you get to invite other people to take care of you, and you get to take care of them in the ways that work for them. And it's, it's a full respect relationship.
Alyssa:
Hmm. Exactly. And yeah. But I don't want to imply that the partnership that consists of only two people can't have any of this level of respect. It's more in a model where people already have to negotiate everything and there's acceptance of not doing things by normative ways. A lot of this conversation has already been had. And so it's much shorter and less involved, whereas it's something of ours that the monogamous end up having to bring into theirs. It's, it's so true to, to try to have this kind of thing in their model.
Libby:
It's so true. I mean, that's, that's actually, it's funny, one of my favorite couples therapists Well that one that I I've trained under and learned a lot from. You know, what he talks about a lot is full respect living not having a power over dynamic in relation And, and he traces it back to patriarchy, basically. You know, men having dominion over the world and over women. I mean, I would trace it back even further. I would say it's, it's also rooted in in capitalism and Yes. And 'cause we are definitely coerced in our jobs, in other aspects of our lives. Basically, like you said, from the time we're young, this idea that you can have power over and, and compel people to want different things, to like different things to be a different person that's kind of woven into our society and people. I think you're right. People, I think a lot of people who are in monogamous relationships don't like it either. I don't think coercion. has any place in intimacy. And in fact coercion, I think disrupts connection. It either disrupts connection to another human being or it disrupts connection to yourself or both.
Alyssa:
Oh yes. So
Libby:
Much. And, and, and of course there are tons of non-monogamous and polyamorous folks who still operate under a coercive model. They will, they will feel absolutely entitled to coerce each other, but But by not doing that, you get to be you
Alyssa:
<Laugh> very much. And in our specific case, a lot of it comes down to the social baggage that the neurotypical world likes to inflict on us, where we get rejected over and over again. Not just from intimate situations, but from any kind of social inclusion at all. And then by the time we find someone who's willing to show us any measure of kindness or even interest in having us around, we feel like we have to do whatever it takes to keep them around. Yeah. 'cause the alternative is the yawning chasm of loneliness that we all remember from when we were small. And it doesn't have to be that way. It, it just absolutely doesn't, we're allowed to assert what makes the, an environment for ourselves that is better than that.
Libby:
Well, I, I think what you just said there is so important that I wanna I wanna stay with that for a second. What you said there Is because if you're not neurotypical and you're living in a neurotypical world you've been experiencing some form of social relational rejection, either within your family of origin or socially at school or myriad of places that when you finally do find someone who is willing to like, quote, unquote put up with you
Libby:
You, you'll, you'll self betray to stay with them. like, you'll, you'll try to squeeze yourself into a pretzel to make yourself acceptable and you'll feel grateful for the opportunity to do it, because that feels better than being alone. And yet it's so not, I just wanna say it isn't better than being alone. Being alone is way better, even though being alone is also very hard. And Yes. It's, you know, it's, it's very, I mean, one of my teachers, Said this so beautifully last week. She said that other human beings are our biome. Like we are really designed to be in community. And for those of you who don't understand autism, if you really have a, a misunderstanding about what it means to be autistic, autistic people are just like everybody else. We all need human connection and we crave it.
Libby:
very capable of empathy. We're very capable of intimacy. And in fact, in some ways, some of the reasons, some of the things that get in our way is an abundance of empathy and abundance of taking in so much, so much emotional data from everybody that we get overwhelmed. And then we don't know how to respond appropriately. <Laugh>, but it's, but it's not absolutely <laugh>. But it's not a lack of, of desire to be in community and So, so being able to be with people who can allow you to be yourself and create a space that accommodates you. is like, like you said, I mean, it's the best of both worlds. It's the, it's the holy grail. I get to be loved and I don't have to destroy myself in order to with someone <laugh>.
Alyssa:
I, I can be around someone who gets excited when I go on a 20 minute info dump about what <laugh> the thing I'm excited about right now, because they know what it means that I came to them with this. Yeah.
Libby:
Oh yeah. Oh gosh, man.
Alyssa:
Put it in my veins. <Laugh> <laugh>.
Libby:
Okay. I think, I think, I think that's, I think that's a solid case for why non-monogamy would be a good move. If you are neurodiverse.
Libby:
So that was a bit of an abrupt cutoff I know. But we have to split this episode into two parts because there was just so much to talk about. And I do not like hour and a half long podcast episodes. I know some of y'all do. It's just not for me. So we're gonna leave it here. Stay tuned next week for part two of my conversation with Alyssa Gonzalez.
