Libby Plus One: The Trap of Easy
On this episode, Libby is joined by her partner Kyrr to talk about why it's important to acknowledge the truth about change.
Transcript
Kyrr:
You know, the trap of easy has a lot to it. The things that I think about are first, we don't know our own self worth. Yeah. So when we ask for something, it, it's hard to ask for things that are hard.
Libby:
Would you like to introduce yourself?
Kyrr:
I'd love to.
Libby:
Cool.
Kyrr:
Thank you. Hi, my name is Kyrr. I get excited about transformative justice, community care and trauma wellness. I've been in polyamorous relationships for as long as I've had romantic relationships. I'm transgender and you're welcome to use they them pronouns. When you talk about me, most importantly right now, though, I'm a big fan of the podcast and I sit on the board of the Libby Sinback fan club which is a big responsibility. So I'm thrilled to be here today and talk about this with you.
Libby:
I'm really glad you're here too. And Drew, and I talked about a giving advice to someone on Reddit and you and I talked about doing that too, but then you just had this really great idea for a concept for the podcast. And initially, you know, you've given me ideas in the past for stuff for the podcast and, you know, just let me kind of come up with my own recording on it. But for this one, I really thought it would be nice for us to talk together about it. So why don't you introduce your idea?
Kyrr:
I'd love to. My idea is the trap of calling change easy.
Libby:
Yes. It's a trap.
Kyrr:
Don't do it. I think a lot of times when we want something from either a group of people or one person that we really care about, we can fall into a trap of calling it easy.
Libby:
Or need something, right? Like sometimes it's not a want, it's a need.
Kyrr:
Oh, Absolutely. Sometimes the change that we're looking for is non-negotiable right. But something that I have found is that when I fall into the trap of minimizing, I lose a lot and I don't get what I want. And it often is with things that are important to us and things that are non-negotiable, it can be something like wearing a mask.
Libby:
Oh yeah.
Kyrr:
It can be something like using a condom.
Libby:
You know, even something as simple as wearing a mask. We say that that's easy, right? It's not necessarily easy. I don't know about you guys. I mean, half the time I, I like I'm running out the door and I'm still not used to even having a mask on me. And so sometimes I've actually made it halfway somewhere and I don't have my mask and I have to go back and get it, or you have to wash them because they get dirty or you have to deal with getting acne on your face because they're rubbing on your face or, you know, and it's also like legit that not all of them fit well. And some of them are hard to breathe out of.
Kyrr:
Truly. And the condom mask comparison is one that I live for because it really is true that it doesn't fit well. It doesn't fit all users.
Libby:
It changes the experience.
Kyrr:
It entirely changes the experience.
Libby:
And though necessary absolutely necessary. I mean, these are both forms of protection, you know, and actually both forms of protecting the other person as well. And you know, it's legitimate that these things are non-negotiable, it is important to wear a mask in coronavirus times. It is important to wear a condom. If you would like to be able to engage in safer sex with somebody, or
Kyrr:
Frankly, the person that you wanna have sex with says, I need you to wear a condo.
Libby:
Right. And I think that to your point, it can be so easy to be dismissive about that because it's, non-negotiable because it's absolutely necessary. We can be really dismissive about the ways in which it's challenging.
Kyrr:
And there are a lot of reasons why, you know, the trap of easy has a lot to it. The things that I think about at first, we don't know our own self worth. Yeah. So when we ask for something, it, it's hard to ask for things that are hard. Mm. Because we don't wanna make other people do work.
Libby:
Right.
Kyrr:
Not only are we not worth it, but we live in a society that makes our lives more difficult. Right. And craves convenience at every turn, because we're so overwhelmed.
Libby:
And I mean, I love how you brought up self worth, because I think that kind of ties back into this practice of being real clear about what you need and where your boundaries are. And if you don't believe that you deserve to have boundaries that you deserve to have non-negotiables then what you need to rely on is, well, it's easy that that's why you should do it. It's not because I need it. It's not because it's the right thing to do. It's not because it's the thing that's gonna make us all safer. It's not because it's the way of affirming your gender identity. It's not these, you know, things that have to do with caring for other people. Oh no, it's just easy. That's why you should do it.
Kyrr:
If you're having a hard time wearing a mask because it's physically uncomfortable. Because if you happen to be five years old, maybe the front of your mask gets wet because you spit on it. Oh,
Libby:
Gross. That is that's my five year old, by the way.
Kyrr:
Or maybe you just have a hard time, you know, it pulls on your ears or gives you attention headache if I'm over here saying, oh, but it's so easy. Everyone needs to do it. It's imperative. And it's absolutely simple.
Libby:
Yeah.
Kyrr:
Even if you're in alignment with me about the idea, the way that I'm expressing myself is gonna make you feel terrible.
Libby:
Oh yeah. I mean, it's shaming, it's shaming. It's dismissive. It's I mean, and from the person who's saying it, it sounds very righteous. I don't think we need to be that way with each other. I love when we talked about this earlier, like we kind of came up with like a preliminary list of things that we might say are both essential and not easy, but that we might fall into the trap of saying, oh, is, is easy. You should just do it. You know? And I'm wondering if we could like, just kind of go through, oh, absolutely. Some of those,
Kyrr:
Yeah.
Libby:
One that's very near and dear to my heart is showing up on time because for some people that is easy, but for some people it's not, for me, it's not, but I work at it and it's worth working at it because it shows care people. It shows value of my time and other people's time. I mean, there's reasons to, to do that and
Kyrr:
Managing jealousy.
Libby:
Yeah.
Kyrr:
Is another one big one.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and with that, like just self soothing, you know, doing your own work of owning your feelings and taking inventory of them before, just sort of reacting, right? Like that. That's not easy. It's a simple concept, but No.
Kyrr:
Respecting other people's boundaries.
Libby:
Yeah. And asserting your boundaries too.
Kyrr:
Absolutely. Non-negotiable it is necessary in order to have healthy communication, in order to have understanding, in order to have intimate relationship.
Libby:
Yeah.
Kyrr:
It's the corner of a lot of things. It's not easy at all. I've had a very robust relationship with my own boundaries for my entire life. And I would never say that it's been easy.
Libby:
When we're talking about intimate partnerships. There are times when your partner's gonna express a boundary, you don't like, or you might need to have a boundary that your partner doesn't like, and being that is really hard. Again, it's a very clear line. Like you don't with people's boundaries, but it can, you know, it's not easy when it's something you don't like, and it's not easy to navigate that gracefully as well. I think I like this one, not overbooking or overcommitting common problem with popular people in general, but polyamorous folks as well.
Kyrr:
And it's a place where change is possible. I know a lot of people see that as see that one as really intractable, And it's not.
Libby:
No, You can work on that.
Kyrr:
But it's not easy.
Libby:
For the, again. For the people who don't have a hard time with it, who have a lot of practice at it, whatever, maybe it's easy, but for plenty of people, for whom this is a growing edge, not yeah. But yeah, no, you can definitely work on it and it's worth working on for a lot of obvious reasons. Oh, this is another good one talking about difficult subjects. So how many people who listen to this podcast are people who have a hard time bringing up conflict. Maybe they're uncomfortable rocking the boat uncomfortable with difficult conversations, uncomfortable, worried about making their partner upset. I think.
Kyrr:
By the way that discomfort with conflict is part of why we fall into the trap of easy.
Libby:
Yes. Oh, that's a good point.
Kyrr:
We don't want to have a conversation about it where both people are experiencing negative emotions and having a hard time getting through that where we might disagree, where we might have different priorities.
Libby:
We just don't wanna deal with somebody's complaints. You know? I mean, we've talked about that before, you know, when somebody goes, oh, it's so hard, you don't wanna hear someone whine about something that you really need from them.
Kyrr:
It doesn't make it easier for them to do what you want them to do though. No, if you say no, it's easy because then you lose the trust.
Libby:
Well, right. Well...
Libby:
Immediately That person knows that you're gonna minimize things that they struggle with.
Libby:
Yeah.
Kyrr:
And they know not to trust you anymore.
Libby:
Well, and I mean, I think it's legitimate though, at the same time to not, sometimes you may not want to hear someone complaining about something, you know, like I don't really wanna hear people complain about wearing a mask. I don't really wanna hear somebody complain about wearing a condom. I don't really wanna hear somebody complaining about my boundaries or having to manage their jealousy, or there's another good one here about just changing labels or telling other people about your partner, like getting in the practice of mentioning that your polyamorous mentioning that you have an existing partner when you meet new people, changing your relationship expectations. You know, all of these are things that I really don't generally wanna hear complaints about, but at the same time you do deserve to feel irritated about having to make changes cuz change. Isn't easy. I think that's maybe the crux of what we're saying here is that any kind of behavior change, if you were very comfortable with what you were doing before and then you have to make a shift, that's probably never gonna be easy.
Kyrr:
No. Which brings us to a really good point. Yeah. How do you shift your mindset?
Libby:
Right.
Kyrr:
How do you practice that value of understanding that change is difficult and worthwhile and sometimes non-negotiable
Libby:
Yeah. Well tell me here.
Kyrr:
Something that can be kind of magical is that the process of understanding things as worthwhile, but difficult can really deepen your relationship, not just to the person that you're engaged in the behavior change with, but to the concept itself. Right. I experienced this when consent was very important to me after, you know, a lifetime experience of trauma around sexual health. Right. And I found that when I said it's really easy, we just have to practice consent. I was losing a depth of relationship to my understanding of consent. Right. Which I now see as of practice, as multifaceted as having a lot of barriers standing in the way to it on every side, whether it's how hard it is to say no or how hard it is to hear or no.
Libby:
Yeah. What you're missing out on is leaning into the fact that it is work, that it is something that takes some time and attention and effort. And that that in and of itself could be its own reward.
Kyrr:
Exactly. It can strengthen your understanding of how the world works. It can create more intimacy between you and other people when you don't minimize. And instead are able to lean into the journey of something. The transformation happens when you take on change. That can be really beautiful. Yeah. That can be part of an entire relationship.
Libby:
Well, and I even wanna say it doesn't have to deepen your intimacy with someone cuz that may not be what you want. But I think having this ethic of care and having this ethic of, I am going to perhaps incon myself, because it would be better to do that. I think it's self transformative as well. Like it gives you that I'm gonna do this work because I know it will make me a better person because I know that it will make me a more caring person. Even if it's inconvenient, even if it's uncomfortable, even. I mean like I don't like wearing a mask, I'll be honest. I will tell everyone I don't love wearing a mask. I also wear a mask because I know that when I'm out in the world, I'm doing the thing that is gonna keep other people safe. I'm also demonstrating that I'm doing the thing. That's gonna keep people safe.
Kyrr:
It's important.
Libby:
It's an expression of my values.
Kyrr:
And by being in communication with each other, our out how it's important and hard, we can make the journey easier.
Libby:
Yeah.
Kyrr:
One thing that I think is really important is creating space both when you are the person who is asking for a change and when you're the person who wants to make the change. Yep. When you wanna make the change, you need space to be able to complain out how hard it is, whether that's with a therapist, whether that's writing in a journal, whether that's just talking to a friend, you need to be able to do that. And when you're the person who's asking for the change, you absolutely need a place to vent your frustration. Yeah. To say it's really important. And it feels like you don't value it when you don't do it. Just hard for me to be around. You need to be able to have those moments and simultaneously you need to be able to come back.
Libby:
Well. And I think in intimate partner, I don't encourage people to have this kind of relationship with people that they're not close to, but in intimate partner relationships, when someone's trying to make a change that you have asked for it is sometimes important to be able to hold space for their difficulty around it. And it's also important. And I say this a lot to be a participant in their change. So if they're trying and they're not quite getting it right, the worst thing you can do is poop on it, on their efforts and tell them that they're screwing up and complain and be critical. And like, I can understand how it can feel that way sometimes like when someone's trying, but it's still not meeting your needs that can still hurt. That can still suck. And you yet, if you just are punishing your person for screwing it up, then I think that can be very disheartening.
Libby:
That can be very disempowering. That person might just feel like they're never gonna get it right. And so where you can, you know, and again, you don't always have to be able to do this, but when, where you can be encouraging and give guidance, give fee, that's part of the work when you're asking for someone to make a shift is to be part of the process with them. And again, that's intimate work. So I'm not talking about if you meet someone and you're like, oh, by the way, my pronouns are, you know, he, him and not she her. So you need to use the correct pronouns. You don't know necessarily have to have an intimacy with that person. They just need to know what they need to know. And then you can let them go on their Merry way.
Kyrr:
And if you wanna support people in making change journeys. Yeah. What you can do as someone outside of that dynamic is say, Hey, I'm noticing that you're having to make this change. I bet it's really hard. How can I support you in It?
Libby:
Yeah. A hundred percent
Kyrr:
With a lot of humility.
Libby:
Yeah.
Kyrr:
Without an idea that you're better than them because you've already made the change.
Libby:
Yeah.
Kyrr:
Anything like that.
Libby:
Yeah. And that's so huge because I see that a lot in certain communities. I see a lot of, well, I've figured this out, I've already done this. So what's your problem. And the thing is, everybody comes to behavior change at different times and in different ways. And if we're not holding space for where different people are on their journeys, I mean, they're not going to, we're actually impeding their progress. We're, we're stopping them from getting where they want to go.
Kyrr:
And if you're stuck in oversimplifying something, then you're not gonna be able to deepen your relationship to it. And you're shutting down the possibility of generative conflict. Yeah. Because if you do have capacity to be with someone, as they tell you why change is hard, you really can find new ideas about the concept that you're talking about. You can imagine different ways to tackle any problems that might be arising. Yeah.
Libby:
I mean, there's...
Kyrr:
You can gain.
Libby:
Yeah. You can change your relationship with the thing you're asking. I mean, there's a lot of opportunity there.
Kyrr:
II have one more thing.
Libby:
Oh, Okay.
Kyrr:
This is what helps you come back, which is a backbone. Okay. Having a backbone around why this is important to you and being able to communicate that to the other person and being able to come back to it when you're in those moments of frustration, especially if you're feeling lost. Yeah. You know, it might be something like, I really want people to be on time because I want to know that they affect me. Yeah. And if I'm really letting myself get deep into my own feelings and also be compassionate to the other person, which is what I wanna do in intimate relationship, I can make that sentence a little longer. You know, I can say it's important to me that people are on time because it shows respect to me. I understand that that's hard for people and I've opened myself up to receiving respect in other ways. And I can let go when I'm able to. And I don't always have to let go.
Libby:
Well, yeah. And perfection, isn't always gonna be the goal here.
Kyrr:
No...
Libby:
Depending on the thing, sometimes perfection is the goal, but I think you're right. Having some forgiveness for not being there yet is a crucial part of the process.
Kyrr:
And having that core that you come back to, so you, you can kind of bounce out and be really frustrated, but then you know that you bounce back to something.
Libby:
Yes. Well, and I think to add to that, the other piece of it would be again, where you can appreciating where the other person is and where they trying to get to and appreciating their effort, I think can also go a long way.
Kyrr:
Yes. And having the backbone allows you to not minimize the change itself too. Cause that's something people also do. They, this happens with pronouns all the time.
Libby:
Yeah.
Kyrr:
It becomes difficult to create that conflict. You stop correcting people, you start well, it's really not that important. Right? Yeah. I'd prefer it if you used my pronouns, but I guess you don't have to, since this is the, you know, 20th time that I'm correcting you over the span of a very short amount of time we've been talking. So I'm just gonna let it slide.
Libby:
Well, and the problem with that too, is that when the change does happen, that can get minimized as well. Like this person put in a lot of effort to make a shift and then you're like, okay, whatever,
Kyrr:
It wasn't really a big Deal.
Libby:
It really wasn't a big deal. Or this was non-negotiable. So this is what you should have been doing. So you're not getting a cookie for this. And I mean, again, in some context, that's fine, again, in more non-intimate situations, but in a situation where you have a front row seat to the person's struggle, you can see it, you can see how hard it was. And if you minimize that, then again, it just, I just think it feels really disempowering and shamey and you know, not everything is easy for everybody and it's worth celebrating when somebody does the work and struggles through it and makes it together side out of just, you know, writing that off as unimportant. So I think it's like two sides of that same coin, you know.
Kyrr:
It goes back to what you've said about grandiosity and shame in prior episodes of your podcast, which by the way, if what we're saying vibes with you, I highly recommend the episode that you did on feedback. Oh yeah. Which was called
Libby:
Giving great feedback or something like that.
Kyrr:
Yeah.
Libby:
I'll link to it in the description. Y'all anyway.
Kyrr:
Because I think that that episode had a lot of great points about how to do this. Well, if you're looking to advance on a practical standpoint,
Libby:
Sweet. Well Kyrr, thank you for this super duper awesome idea. It's been so fun to nerd out about it with you as I love to nerd out about so many things with you because you're wonderful and amazing. Thank you for joining me on my podcast today.
Kyrr:
Thank you for having me thrilled to have been here.
