What if We Don't Have Sex? With Chaneè Jackson Kendall
Chaneè and Libby answer a question from a listener who identifies as asexual who asked about non-sexual polyamorous relationships. Chaneè identifies as almost-megasexual, Libby identifies as greyace/demisexual, so you can imagine that it is a RICH conversation. They talk about nonsexual partnerships, chosen family, grief, vulnerability and choosing the love that you want for your life. This one is not to be missed!
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Transcript
Libby:
I am really, really excited to share today's episode with you. I had just an incredible conversation with Chaneè Jackson Kendall. Chaneè is a black polyamorous educator and event planner, and she co-founded Black Poly Pride, the first and only black polyamorous conference for black people by black people. She has openly identified as non-monogamous and kinky for over a decade, and is the proud mama of a kind intelligent son whom she lovingly co-parents with three other amazing humans. Chaneè is a coach. She has dedicated her life to polyamorous education, outreach and activism, and she's passionate about normalizing polyamory, both as a relationship orientation and a valid relational choice. Chaneè and I have a beautiful conversation where we talk about something that I don't think gets talked about enough, which is non-sexual polyamorous relationships, relationships that either start out as non-sexual because one of the people is asexual, or relationships that transition to non-sexual but remain important. Partnerships full of love, maybe even full of romance. We really get into it, y'all. So make sure that you set aside the time, grab a cup of tea, grab a sandwich, or hop in your car. You wanna hear this whole episode from start to finish, cuz it is just incredible and I'm gonna stop talking about it now and just let you listen. I'll see you on the other side.
Libby:
So I am so happy to have Chaneè Jackson Kendall on making polyamory work today. Hi Chaneè . Welcome.
Chaneè :
Hey, Libby, thanks so much for inviting me. I am happy to be here.
Libby:
I I'm happy you're here too. And, I'm so excited about our topic today. I gave Chaneè a list of, listener questions to pick from, and I'm gonna read the one that she chose for us to answer together today. So it's just a fairly simple question. Hi Libby. Thank you for your amazing podcast. It's helping me tremendously. I am a heteroromantic asexual and I would like to get into a polyamorous relationship. Would you please consider including talks about non-sexual polyamorous relationships in your next podcast? Thank you so much. And so, Chaneè , you picked this one. I'm gonna tell a little bit about what drew you to this question.
Chaneè :
Yes. So the first thing is I think that it's a topic that we don't address very much in our community. I think there are lots more non-sexual polyamorous relationships that are often shamed and don't feel like they have a place or a seat at the table. So I kind of wanted to bring that to the forefront. The other thing is that I am really big on battling amatonormativity and I have a lot of intimate relationships that do not involve sex. And it's something that I have has really been like on the forefront of my mind lately. So I think, you know, my work as a polyamorous educator, it always kind of comes back to what's happening in my life as well. So I thought it was a really good time to talk about it.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and you used a big word there, I've used it before on the show, but I'm wondering, would you define a amatonormativity for our listeners?
Chaneè :
Absolutely. So amatonormativity is the idea. It's a push back against the idea that only sexual and romantic relationships should be prioritized in our lives. So it's basically the re the idea that all relationships are on equal footing and that it's not just about romance or sex that should, um, rank relationships in our life.
Libby:
Yeah. And I love that. I mean, some of, some people, I've mentioned this on my show before, but I identify as being on the asexual spectrum. I'm like somewhere between demisexual and gray asexual. And so non-sexual polyamorous relationships are actually really important to me. I've gone through like several iterations of, having to have conversations with partners of mine being like, I don't think this is sexual right now for us. Like, I don't think that's the driving force of our relationship. And like you, I'm, I'm in the boat of, but it's still very important to me. And then there are people that I'm in relationship with who I'm not sexual with at all, and we've never been sexual. But it's like you said, very intimate. It's a very intimate friendship. And I do you, are you in the same camp of like, I just hate hearing the word. We're just friends.
Chaneè :
I hate that. And it's something that me and one, one of my partners have had to really like battle against. Yeah. cause we were in this space of being just friends for a long time, and we realize that even language doesn't align with our values around it. Right. The language is it reduces what we have, right? And so we talked about what does it mean to be someone's partner, right? What does that mean to show up to do life with them? And then we've been in this process of evaluating like, if we take sex out of the equation, are you my partner? Right? And if we accept that you can have sex with people who aren't your partner, can't you also partner with people that you're not having sex with?
Libby:
Yeah.
Chaneè :
That's kind of how it's been working in our brain and in my brain.
Libby:
Well, and I appreciate you saying that because I think that for a lot of polyamorous people who haven't unpacked amatonormativity or who don't want to, they do tend to define partner as someone they're having sex with, and they define friend as someone they're not having sex with. And yet, to your point, I think the way that I would define partner is what you said, which is I would define partner as someone I'm doing life with that I have some kind of commitment or some kind of agreement or some kind of expectation with. And it doesn't mean that we're lifelong partners, but it does mean that we are, we're in something together that we're committed to, that we're either creating, that we're building, we have some like practices, we have some involvement in each other's lives. And that could, and why would, honestly, Chaneè, why would sex even be the thing that would determine whether I would do that with somebody or not? When sex is like an, I mean, again, this is my asexuality talking, like sex for me is just like an activity like tennis, you know, like I don't even play tennis, but like. But like, why would I choose to build a life with someone that I have a really great tennis partner relationship with? Like, I might do that if we have other stuff in common, but like, I'm not gonna say, we've got a really great tennis chemistry, let's go make babies together.
Chaneè :
No, I agree with you 100%. And it's funny because I am probably maybe just like a hair above mega sexual, right? So like, I don't need sex first, and, but I do, I am a very sexual person, right? But still, the, the reality remains, we still spend very little of our time having sex, right? And sexual compatibility, sexual compatibility and chemistry have nothing to do with chemistry outside of that space, right? Not for me anyway. Now I think that sex can build intimacy, right?. But again, you can have sexual chemistry with people that you don't experience intimacy with. And so for me, I have been trying to break down this idea that sex is a necessary component of partnership. Because when you really think about it, and I'm being called to live my values, right? Because I've been saying that for many years, but also I've been in partnerships where I was having sex, right? So now as I start to realize and find myself in partnerships that don't center sex, what does that mean for my life, right? And, how can l live what I've been, you know, it's kinda like, do you, are you practicing what you're preaching? Yeah. Am I diminishing relationships in my life that are non-sexual because that's what society does? But I'm trying to kind of fight against that personally.
Libby:
Yeah. I mean, I love everything you said there. And one thing that I wanted to like, hold onto that you said like, you can have a sexual relationship and not have it be intimate and you can have an intimate relationship and have it not be sexual. I wanna just hold onto that, that idea for a minute and just like sit there with that, because that, I think that's really important because it really isn't like a, all sexual relationships are intimate or all intimate relationships or sexual, I think you can have it be both. Like sex can be this vehicle for intimacy, sex can be this magical spiritual thing sometimes. Or it could be like tennis, like, you're good at sex, I wanna do sex with you.
Chaneè :
Right? No, I think that that's really an important thing, right? And so as we kind of embrace the idea of designing our relationships, right, and being, having relationships that are, that work for all the people involved, right? We have left behind this idea that monogamy is telling us that we can only have one kind of relationship with one person,
Libby:
Right?
Chaneè :
As we have, as we reject monon normativity, right? I feel like it's kind of like a stair step. Once you get to this point of fully embracing consensual non-monogamy, then you're also forced to examine your relationships and what, how are you ranking your relationships and are you ranking them? Is it necessary to rank relationships based on the activities that you do together?
Libby:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I mean, I think you, I just wanna highlight to anybody who's listening who's like, this doesn't resonate with me at all. Sex is like really, really important to me and really, really important for way I connect people. I wanna just highlight that what Chaneè's saying is that can be how you do it, if that's what you are proactively and intentionally choosing for yourself. I think what we're both saying, and I think I love that. Like, I just love that, like, you dived right into this, and I was like, yes. This is exactly how I feel because, like it's a matter of taking away the default that is the way you have to see it. Like if you, if you have done the unpacking and the like, deprogramming, and you still say to yourself, you know what? Chaneè, you know what? Libby, sex is really important to me. I like sex is the way that I connect to people. Intimacy without sex is not very fulfilling for me. And so this is what I want. I want sexually intimate and intimate sexual relationships, and I want those two things together. Great, But you don't have to if that isn't what fits for you.
Chaneè :
That's exactly right. I am a proponent of choice, right? And for me personally, I absolutely desire romantic and intimate relationships that also include sex, but I don't have to choose. I can have all of that. I can have some intimate relationships that include sex, but that doesn't bar me from having intimate life partnerships that don't include sex. Right? So a very big part of who I am as a person, if my refusal to choose, right? You're not gonna pigeonhole me and saying, you can have A or B as a bisexual polyamorous switch, I am always going to go for C, all of the above
Libby:
I love that. Well, and I guess for people who are maybe having their, a hard time wrapping their head around this, I wonder if it might be useful for maybe each of us to just, if you're comfortable to share like what that really looks like for you. Like in terms of like, are you comfortable sharing a little bit about your constellation of like how your operation, how you're actually living into this right now?
Chaneè :
Sure. I am happy when you first asked me, it was hilarious because I was like, oh, no, I'm not talking about that. But I realized I do have something I'm totally willing to talk about, right? One of my partnerships is very fresh, and I'm not ready to talk about it yet, but let's talk about my relationship with one of my co-parents, right? she and I were in a deeply intimate sexual, romantic relationship for five years. We were in a Ds relationship for five years. I feel like, let's really get into what that means. And then when it became time for, our relationship to transition, right? I was terrified of what that would mean for our family. We live together. Yeah, and we have had this child together, we've built lives together. You know, I'm on our insurance.
Chaneè :
Like this is a real life partnership. So what does it mean when your romantic relationship ends was a really big looming question for us. And you know, it's one of those things that time has revealed to me, like time has revealed to me that I still have a partner, right? That we're still doing life together, we're raising our child together. That's, you know, she's still the very first call. Like, you know, it could be something as like, inconvenient as my audio isn't working properly on my computer, right? And like she's coming downstairs to fix it, right? And it could be like, Hey, like, I really need some money. Like, give me some, it could be something as simple as like, I'm going on a trip. Do you wanna go? We have this beautiful, rich partnership that exists now that I never would've imagined. I would be open to, right? I had no idea that that would be our reality. I was terrified. I thought we would break up and we would stop talking and she would move out and that we would have to be like divorced people. But I was like, we don't have to do that. Like, that is the script that monogamy has given us. But polyamory allows us to write our own script and decide for ourselves what our relationship will look like.
Libby:
Yeah. I wanna really appreciate what you're saying there and what, and that story, because I think it's, there's so much in there about what it means not just to be partners, but what it means to be caring for each other and family to each other. And I mean, and this is something that I say a lot, which is that there's not, every partnership has to feel like a chosen family scenario, right? Like, you can have a partner who's like a kink partner or who's, you know, a partner that you mostly go out and do stuff with, rather than a partner that you're like, like that is there for you when you're sick and is making chicken soup for you and stuff like that. Or who is coming down and fixing your audio on your computer or picking up your kids together or whatever. And at the same time, you know, in Mononormativity world, the only kind of chosen family that is like acceptable is the kind that you are romantically and sexually partnered with, you know? and then, or I mean, I feel like, well, I guess no, I'm gonna actually push back against that. That's, I would say in white settler culture, that would be how we do it. And you're like, yep.
Chaneè :
Right? And that was my comment, right? my comment is that historically black people don't do that, right? And so I think I always call to mind the idea of like, we have aunties and uncles and cousins that are not like at all related to us by blood, right? And those that is our chosen family, those are the people to this day, I have a bevy of aunties that I can call up and I can say I need, and it's whatever it is, it's going to happen, right? I have been, my parents raised me in a village, right? And there was, there's no distinction in a lot of situations, I'm closer to these aunties of love than I am to the, the people who are my parents' biological siblings, right? And so it's the same concept. It's the idea that you can choose your people, right? And it's culturally, it's, for me, it's a return, right? It's a return to this idea that this is how we raise our children, this is how we accomplish things. This is really how I was raised.
Libby:
Well, and I love that you're saying that, and I'm really glad you brought that in because it, it's so true. It's not a new way of doing things. It's a very old way of doing things. And, you know, I did an interview with Akilah Riley-Richardson, and her episode, she talks about this concept called epistemicide. Have you heard of Epistemicide? I didn't know that word, but basically like this idea that, you know, white settler culture has erased all these different ways of knowing and all these different, and I think also all these different ways of doing life and, you know, I just, what you're talking about is sort of an invitation to go towards back to that creation of your village, back to that creation of your family. And I do see people trying to, I mean, what's interesting to me is I think in polyamory, people are trying to do that, and they're using sex as a way to create their family. And I think it's so important that what we are saying is you don't actually have to do that, you can.
Chaneè :
Interesting. Because I think as a culture, we can embrace the idea that after the sex ends, then we can be family, right? So it's kind of like, you know, we embrace these healthy co-parenting relationships once people have separated or become divorced. But like, maybe we can do all that without all the yucky trauma guys. Like, you can just decide, and I talk all the time about being intentional about who you parent with, right? Obviously intentionality is my brand, but just remember, like marriage can be dissolved with some money and a signature, but parenting cannot. So let's be more intentional about who we choose to parent with. I'm somebody that you're most compatible with, and you can really, you can have sex with whoever you want, but these big things are better gonna determine your life, like who you live with and who you financially entangle with. Let's be more intentional about that. And let's not let our genitals make those decisions.
Libby:
To the yes. Oh my God. Okay. But I feel like we have to talk about something else here though, around this.
Chaneè :
Oh, this is the hard part.
Libby:
This part, this is the hard part, right? Which is, okay, I agree with all that. And maybe some other folks listening are agreeing with that. And at the same time, if we're raised with this idea that what we're supposed to have is the sex, the romance, and all of the entanglements and everything, it's all supposed to be in one nice little package. And that's what you were hoping for. And then it turns out that some of the things you did want, like you really wanted, maybe you were told to want them, but like, that doesn't mean you didn't want them. And then, I mean, I'm thinking about that breakup that you're not called a breakup. I'm gonna reframe this. You're talking about that transition with your partner, your nested partner. And there was a period of time where you were very deeply involved on so many levels, and then some of those levels had to go away. They weren't working anymore, they needed to change. There's loss there, right? There's, there's grief. And I think one reason why we have the script of the, the horrible breakup and the horrible divorce and the splitting and not speaking to each other or the contentiousness and all of that, I think what that's really about is not being able to process the grief and the loss and the pain of rejection and all of that. So I guess now can we talk about that?
Chaneè :
We can, that is so real, and that is something that's a thing that's really close to my heart because I often personally have a tendency to want to rush the bad feelings and just like skip to the end, right? But we have to grow through these things, right? And sometimes it's just accepting that you're disappointed, right? Whether it's a situation where your sexual or romantic relationship is ending. Or you could be in a situation where you may be desired a romantic and sexual connection with someone and they're saying to you like, I love you and I'm happy to exist in community with you, but I don't want that romantic relationship.
Libby:
Well, and I think that that's true for people who are on the ace or aro spectrum, because I don't know about you Chaneè, but I didn't know that being ace existed when I was a kid. And so, you know, I knew that you could be gay. I knew that you could be bisexual, but I didn't know you could be asexual. I didn't know you could be a romantic. And so for me, it wasn't like I was aware of my sexuality at that time, and I remember when I finally became aware of it, I was like, holy, this explains so much about me, and now I have to tell my partners about it, and I have to like, explain myself to them and hope they'll accept me that way. And I'm imagining that, you know, and I'm 43, I do have hope that like younger people are more aware that this is an option.
Libby:
And it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean that you're like a non-person because I do think like asexuality is sort of like there's something wrong with you if you're asexual or that there's something broken about you. And I just don't, I don't believe that's true at all. I think it's just another way of being that I think if there are people who are my age or even a little bit younger, a little bit older, who are coming into this realization that, oh my God, I am, this is who I am. And now I have to go pursue relationships, being honest about who I am, and then find love, partnership, connection, family, kids, whatever things I might want for myself. And then my partner. If I already have a partner and they didn't know and I didn't know, and then I have to tell them, this is who I am now, you know, that disappointment is so real, right? That disappointment. Yeah.
Chaneè :
That feels so scary to me, right? Because as a person who is very sexual and I like to have sex forward relationships, I can imagine like how a partner might feel, right? If they had to come to me and say, I love you and I wanna be with you, and I wanna live with you, but I don't wanna have sex with you. Right? I can only like just putting myself in that shoes. I can imagine it would be a difficult conversation, right? And so it reminds me, it calls to mind this, like I'm like a walking like Brenè Brown quote. But she reminds us that everything that we want is on the other side of vulnerability, right? And so we have to have the courage to be vulnerable and show up as who we are, right? And absolutely when we lay ourselves bare like that, it does give us the possibility for someone to reject us, but it also opens up the possibility for love and acceptance and connection. Yeah. And we have to be able, we have to be willing to make the take the leap.
Libby:
Yeah. I have a story about that actually, because I remember when I actually had to do that, I had my moment of like vulnerability, where I had to look two of my partners cuz, and I guess I wanted to say like, you don't actually have to be asexual to wanna transition a relationship to being non-sexual. Like you can be just, you usually just realize the sexual relationships run its course or something about you has changed that makes what you were doing together. You're no longer compatible to keep doing it together. Or they might have changed or, you know, I mean, there's so many different things that can happen over the course of a long-term relationship where sexual dynamics can change. But for me it was really, you know, me realizing something about myself and it, you know, it was so complex.
Libby:
Like I realized I had been trading sex for reconnection. I realized that I felt like I had to have sex with my partners in order for them to be happy with me. I had a real story that if I was gonna be loved, that I needed to make sure we were having sex. And then I realized that I was doing that and I was like, I have to stop. Like, I don't even know what comes next, but I know I have to stop doing that because it's hurting me and it's hurting us. And so I had to take this risk and say specifically to the man that I am, co-parenting with and, that I'm married to. I had to say to him, I don't wanna have sex right now and I don't know when I'm going to want to again.
Libby:
And is everything that we have together enough for you without this other thing? Cuz it's very important to him. It was very important to him. And he had a lot of sensitivity about feeling rejected and not enough and not trusted and you know, all the things that can go into what it means to be sexual with somebody. And I'm like, thank God he said yes, thank God he said yes to that. And thank God that I was willing to be honest and renegotiate our relationships, you know, with the, with everybody being fully informed about what we were getting into. But it was so scary.
Chaneè :
Right? And I just, I wanna inject some compassion, right? Because in that place, both people's feelings are entirely valid, right? Yeah. No one should be having sex as a bid for connection and love, right?
Libby:
Oh wait, say that again. Say that again.
Chaneè :
No one should be having sex as a bid for love and connection, right? You should be able to have sex because you want to, you wanna have sex with that person at that time in that moment, right? But on the other hand let's hold space for how painful it might feel for someone who processes sex as love. Right? That's what it means to me. So when you say you don't want that with me, and let's throw in the spicy polyamorous element of you.
Chaneè :
I also have to watch and know and be aware that while you're not desirous of sex with me, you're over there having sex with somebody else. That's hard. That's incredibly hard.
Libby:
Yeah, it is. You're so right. And that, that is actually what happened too in my relationships. I did have somebody that I just happened to have a lot of sexual compatibility with and it worked well. And like I have such a Emily Nagoski talks about like accelerators and brakes, the amount of breaks that I have being an autistic person, having a lot of sensory stuff, having being, having ADHD like all the stuff that's going on in my head up here got so many sexual breaks and for whatever reason in this relationship, it wasn't hitting on any of them. And so I was just more able to be sexual with this person. And, and yeah, it was hard for my husband, really hard for him. And I mean, I also had another partner that I had been sexual with where I also had to say the same thing.
Libby:
And really it wasn't about how much I desired them or how attracted I was to them. It was about this dynamic that I was caught in, of feeling like I had to feeling like I had to, and it was that mononormativity, right? It was that if we're not sexual partners then I'm not as important to you. And I was terrified of that. I was terrified of it. And you know, I'm happy to say that these two people, these are the people that I am doing life with. We live together, we raise kids together. We're talking about buying a house with my, other partner that I live with. And like we're in it for the foreseeable future. We're in it, we're family. And it's beautiful. And I wouldn't say that I have a non-sexual relationship with any of them right now, but it's not, it doesn't look like what you would think, what you would see as conventional.
Libby:
And it's beautiful. And I think it is because I was willing to take the risk to say what was true for me and that they were willing to move through their grief about it cuz they both had grief about it and we've had a lot of conversations about it and held each other, all of us in compassion that we were able to move through it and be in a really good place with each other. But it is reasonable, to your point, it's reasonable that if that person is feeling rejected, if that person is feeling like they need all of these things in order to feel like they wanna do this with you, that's real too. Right?
Chaneè :
It, it's incredibly real. And you don't have to choose that. Like, I just wanna say that like, the point of this conversation is choice, right? So if you have a partner who decides they don't wanna have sex with you anymore, you could you could do some soul searching and decide that that may mean, that may represent a baseline incompatibility. It's okay to need sex, and desire sex as part of your romantic and sexual relationships. We're not, I'm not shaming that. No. And and if you came, if someone comes to you and poses a non-sexual relationship and you don't want that, it's okay to say, you know, that poses a baseline incompatibility for me and we're gonna have to transition to another type of relationship. Or you could not, you could say, I don't wanna be in relationship with you at all. All of those are valid choices, right? And so, so much compassion for anybody listening who is at some place in that journey, right? Because I've been in all different spots and in all different sides of that conversation. Yeah. But you have a choice. You get to decide for yourself and create for yourself relationships that feel nourishing and loving and feel relevant to who you want to be and how you wanna move through the world.
Libby:
Well, and I think that your invitation, Chaneè, and it's my invitation too, is just to have that choice be a really conscious choice. You know, that you don't have to feel coerced one way or another. You know, you don't, like, don't let a mononormativity or mononormativity or any of the normativity, don't let white settler culture like coerce you into this box because you feel like you have to, and don't let our encouragement that hey, yes, you can have a sexual life partners or you know, non-sexual life partnerships and all of that coerce you if that's not what you want. But I love the part you said about like, there does the invitation at least is to have a, passive time where you really do some soul searching about it and really think about what are your values. And I love that you came back to that. You said, you know, I've been called to live in my values. And I think that's what it comes back to, honestly. It's like what are my values? Who am I, what's the life that I wanna make for myself? And like whether it's polyamory or just conscious monogamy or it's just a platonic commune, need to create one.
Chaneè :
It's really however that shows up for you. And one of the things that has been a real big part of my work lately is the idea, the concept of possibility modeling. So I think that part of this conversation is just both of us, Libby, possibility modeling for you and saying that no matter where you might find yourself, on the timeline of a relationship, like you can pick and choose the places in your Venn diagram with someone where you guys want to continue to interact, right? You can choose at any point. And this is like a great place to talk about like, a tool that relationship anarchists use and like why it's pretty widely used in I think the polymorous community, which is the relationship smorgasbord, right? So if you need some kind of like, format or a container in which to have this conversation, I always would recommend the relationships smorgasbord.
Libby:
Yeah, I love that. I love it as a tool. I give it to my clients a lot as a tool for negotiating each relationship. Like what do we wanna have on the menu with each other? What are our deal breakers? What are our sort of minimum standard of like, I need these things to feel invested with you and you can use it as a soul searching tool for yourself and you can also use it as a creation tool with a partner or with a group of people, et cetera. So I'm right on the same page with you.
Chaneè :
Yeah, it's a great tool. We, you know, there's lots of different versions of it and the beautiful part is that it's like a living tool. So they keep re refining and recreating and adding things and changing the language in it so that it evolves as our community evolves. And that's one of my favorite things about it.
Libby:
Well, and to your point there, you get to negotiate and renegotiate it between your people too, because, you know, we're humans. I am, I was not the same person at 20 that I am at 40, I will not be the same person at 40 that I am at 60. And there needs to be room to continue to have those courageous conversations as things change and make room for the disruption that comes with that make room for the loss that might come with that and make room for the amazing, beautiful creation of the new thing, whatever it might be. And I guess I wanna like maybe close with thinking about, cuz when I think about that vulnerability, Chaneè, that you talked about, I think how that might feel really tender to some people, especially if this is really new to them. And I wonder if we could talk about what are some things that can really support people in having those courageous conversations about what people really want.
Chaneè :
Yeah. Well I think it's really important, even just one of the basic tenets of like, if you're going to be consensually non-monogamous, like do not engage with anyone before engaging with a therapist, right? So that is like one of the very key parts to me. And I know that accessibility, ranges and our ability to access therapy, but if it is something that you have access to therapy is very important. you can do it individually, you can do it with a partner, you can do it as a polycule, all the different, configurations. I mean you can, you, I've been to therapy with a metamor, right? So you can just go to therapy, and talk that through. And I think as it, if you're contemplating a transition or wanting to build this relationship and need help working through, you know, I do like one-on-one coaching where we can talk about like these are the, this is the kind of relationship I'm trying to build. I'm really big on, like role playing conversations. So sometimes you just need, like, I need help finding my words, right? How would I, if you're approaching a courageous conversation and you don't have the right words, I'm pretty good at like helping people find their words and, and then two, just existing in community, right? If you are trying to be polyamorous or any type of consensual nonmonogamous in a bubble, you're likely not doing it very well, right?
Libby:
Wait, I want that one again too, because I think this is so important. I mean, I don't wanna say not doing it well cuz I don't wanna be in this place where like we're judge and jury of who's doing polyamory, what good polyamory is or not. But I do think that what you're saying about if you're in a bubble and you have nobody, whether it's not a professional or a peer coach or a community space, if you've got nobody who knows what you're doing, who you can bounce this off of.
Chaneè :
You're not Feeling good.
Libby:
Well you're just not resourced, you know, you're alone. And I'm sorry, like no offense to, you know, the online Facebook group community, but like that is not it. Like, that's not, I don't consider those spaces to be supportive spaces. And I think you're so right that like some form of like other person to and it's not about like giving you the stamp of approval. It's about just being someone where you can yourself check your own work. You know, like when I'm working with clients, I'm not telling them they're doing it right or wrong. I'm a space where they get to bounce it off of me and usually I feed it back to them and let them hear themselves and then they go, oh shit that's what I'm doing. That's not what I wanted to do at all. Right? And I'm like, what do you wanna do? And let's talk about that. And I love what you say about like, roleplaying so that someone can try something out before having any consequences, you know, that they can. And I think that that's important, whether it's friends or an a group program like the one you teach or like the one I teach, or I mean just having people who can like be another level of gut check for you, important.
Chaneè :
In the intentional polyamory cohort that we just closed, we called it the imatripin, you need to have imatripin friends, right? Like, there has to be somebody that you can call up, lay out the situation and be like, yo, I trust you to tell me if I am the crazy one. Like, who is it that is just bugging right now? Right? And that is so essential because, and the reason why it's essential is not because we need an echo chamber, but it's because we need to support our, we need to surround ourselves with people who are gonna be like, I'm so sorry this is you, right? , like, this is all on you. You are absolutely screwed up here. Like, you're not treating your partner well. You're not being your best self. We need that, right? Yeah, and that's essential to create for your, that have been essential to my happiness, wellbeing and success over the past decade as I've moved through polyamory.
Libby:
Absolutely. So find people to ask you, am I tripping? Because that's really, but, and I think that when I think about am I tripping, what I'm thinking about is like, am I stuck in my own damn story, in my own damn head? Am I letting a bunch of my own shit, my own past shit, society shit, Like, is that messing me up from what I really in my core value and care about? And so it's having someone help you peel that apart and see what's a bullshit projection that I'm making? Or what's some story that I have that is not true and how can I confront that? And I think lots of people can lovingly do that with you, but if you don't have anybody doing that with you, I mean, I don't wanna totally dismiss the possibility that you can do it yourself. I do believe that people can do their own self-work, but I think it's much harder. I think it's really important to have other people,
Chaneè :
I think self-work. So it's funny because self-work is the first pillar of intentional polyamory. That's where we start. But the fourth pillar of intentional polyamory is community, because that's where you end up, right? You do have to do work on your own. But what happens as you move through and as you build this life to support your lifestyle community becomes an essential part as well.
Libby:
I think we should leave it there, Chaneè. Make your love style. And it, and I guess like what I, what we can come around to is like, to your point, polyamory can be about sex, but it's about love.
Chaneè :
That's all.
Libby:
It's about love. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here with me. This has been great.
Chaneè :
I really enjoyed myself. I just got to like talk to my friend and record it. So that was..
Libby:
Well, and one thing to note is Chaneè, you're gonna be at Southwest Love Fest, right?
Chaneè :
I will be at Southwest Love Fest. I'm super excited. Cause this is like, this is delayed for me. I was supposed to be there in 2020 and then pandemic. So I am super ready to like have the party, y'all. We go to the conferences to really party. I don't know if y'all know that, but that's what we're, that's what we do it.
Libby:
We we go to hang out with each other and yep. So come party with us at Southwest Love Fest, Tucson Arizona, April 14th through the 16th. You can use Chaneè's link. I'll put it in the description or you can use my link. We don't care. We just want you to come and
Chaneè :
Buy your tickets, buy it through one of our links and use one of our codes.
Libby:
Did you get 10 off?
Chaneè :
Yeah, 10% off for you. And it also helps us and we would just love to like meet you in person. It's always nice to like interact with people who have interacted with our content in like real life. Yeah.
Libby:
Apart from Southwest Love Fest where can folks find you Chaneè?.
Chaneè :
You can find me at Chaneè Speaks all over the internet. So that's gonna be Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok. You can find me. If you go to any of those places you'll see a long list of links where you can access my programs. Intentional polyamory cohorts are starting up and running if you want to kind of experience the beauty of doing the work in community.
Libby:
I highly recommend it.
Chaneè :
And also if you want, if you have a pressing situation that you benefit from like one-on-one coaching with me, we can also schedule that.
Libby:
Awesome. Well thanks again, Chaneè for being here and come to Southwest Love Fest. See you there. Bye Shanee.
Chaneè :
Bye.
