Relational Privilege with Akilah Riley-Richardson Part 2
In part 2 of Libby's conversation with Akilah Riley-Richardson, Akilah shares her PRIDE model for supporting couples who are working to create safety and resilience in their relationships.
SHOW LINKS
Akilah's website
Relational Privilege and Sytemic Trauma Course
CourseResmaa Menekem: My Grandmother's Hands
Southwest Love Fest (use code "goslow" for 10% off!)
Transcript
Libby:
Welcome to part two of my interview with Akilah Riley Richardson, if you haven't listened to part one yet, please jump back on over to, my podcast and listen to part one. You don't wanna miss part one. And just again, for those of you who are just tuning in Akilah Riley Richardson is a published researcher, couples therapist, certified clinical trauma professional, and we're both, certified in relational life therapy. She, like I have experience working with people who live in love outside the box, as well as specializing in supporting, racial minorities in their relationships with their unique struggles. She is just an incredible person and an incredible human. And if you've already listened to part one, you already know it. So I'm excited to share part two with you now.
Libby:
I wanna go towards what you do to help people when they come to you and you are wanting to help them. Imagine you're wanting to help them find themselves and be in their truth and create and build relational privilege. Reclaim relational privilege for themselves. And I guess I would, you built a beautiful model on how to help people find that. And I wonder if you talk about it,
Akilah:
So just to clarify, when you say the model, you referring to the pride model or you referring. The pride model and the model is emerging. I'm building and I don't ever wanna be done building because I think that I am always gonna be changing. And so the model should be changing. And I'm gonna be interacted with people for the rest of my life who I think will change the model. P R I D E Pride. P is for pivot, R is for rumble, I is for imagine, D is for develop, E is to evolve. I wanna say that the first thing, pivoting is very important. And I see the pivot is a turn in what a turnout word. Like I'm constantly asking you to look inside, pivot inside and see what they have is going on, but then pivot outside and see what is shaping this. So if
Libby:
Well, and that sounds like that responsible externalizing.
Akilah:
Yes. So it's two sets, you know? Yeah. You're very right. And then Rumble, I kind of rumble as a painful part. You rumbles and you begin to ask yourself, how do I know what I know? And when you look at epistemology, and for those of us who may not be familiar with the term, epistemology is essentially that on that study of how do I know what I know? Yeah. So when you talk about epistemology, they're basically speaking about how do we know what we know? and I wanna stay with you rumble a little bit, because in the rumble you begin to recognize that some epistemologies have been favored
Libby:
Yes.
Akilah:
On some of the place. Yeah. I was reading this beautiful article, I can't remember the name of the author, but she was talking about epistemicide, epistomicide, however you wanna pronounce it. With the killing or displacement of particular ways of knowing the world. And to be quite honest, it's largely the killing of by park or global south ways of knowing the world.
Libby:
Absolutely. Now, I think that is probably the best description of what colonialism and whiteness does, right? Is destroys all other ways of knowing that art itself.
Akilah:
and then it and what we do right now is that we, we market certain ways of knowing as being objective and this and that. And we all buy into it. We all buy into it, right? as if colonialism and post-colonialism. You do, you don't even need powerful forces to do it all the time. Like, we help them do it. Yeah,
Libby:
Sure. Well, and you know, I wanna on, I wanna name that, like, I think in there is that connection to ancestor, right? That connection to ancestry. Because if what we're doing is erasing our ways of knowing what we're saying is the old stuff, the old deep wisdom of the past is garbage. And we don't listen to that. Everything is new. Everything is, you know, the newest thing is the most evolved and correct thing. Like, that's a very white colonial way of looking at things. Yeah. And so when I hear you talking about like, reaching back to ancestors Yes. And connecting and finding their wisdom in and their knowings and their ways of surviving and thriving, okay. That pushes that is a, it seems like that's a way to find
Akilah:
Yes, It is.
Libby:
your way back to old ways of knowing.
Akilah:
And when, and I wanna just say this when you go back and you find something, somethings you have, you may say in a lot, I don't really wanna do this, which is fine. Yeah. But what you wanna give yourself is bigger room. Yeah. And it's hard to find wiggle room in when you're undergoing constant epistemicide. Ep-is-te-mi-cide.
Akilah:
Because you're being told that there is one, there's only one way of knowing the world. And if you're trying to know the world outside of this, it's on the periphery. And then people do things like Orientalism or they, you know, they make it sexy or exotic, I mean whatever. Instead of integrating it into the mainstream. So that's the r the R is rumbling with it. And how the hell do I know what I know what has been displaced in favor of what I know. Right. And then when you do that, I think you're in this place of realizing, okay, I'm in the matrix, I am living in somebody else's epistemology. And I get to I, okay, so now can I imagine, can I look at my entire life? And from that place, imagine what I would like to create here.
Libby:
Well, and, and you say something else in the course that I really liked, which is, can we imagine who we'd be without all this stuff that we've been having to deal with?
Akilah:
Yeah. Can we imagine who we I like that, because I have to think about a lot, you know, for me, if I didn't have this, how would I live? What would I do? You know? or if that's too hard because in reality is a part of our life, as I said before. You know, the other question is, if I can take this and evolve Yeah. You know, if I can use this differently, how would I use it?
Libby:
Well but I really like the first question. Yeah. Because when I think about it, it's really powerful to me. Yeah. It's really powerful for that standing in your truth piece, I think like, really figuring out who am I? What do I want, what do I know? Yes and why do I, and how do I know it is, what would I know? What would I do?
Akilah:
How would I know it
Libby:
Would have I made if I wasn't contending with this external force or this internalized depression, whatever it might be. And, and I think that, like, that is such a, I think that is such a fertile ground for imagining, because I think it that can come that really, because then you're basically instead of like living in the constraints, which can kill imagination, right? Like, you start to dream about something you go, that won't happen, that won't work. And then you just say, well, what if we just removed these forces?
Libby:
What could be. And I just, it just like, I feel it all in my body, all tingly. Just thinking about like, you know, that as a tool. I think you're right though to your point, I can see why some people might really struggle with it too. cause it's, we do have it, it is there, you know? But and I, but I love the idea of just inviting, okay, let's just do this for a minute. You don't, we don't have to stay here. Maybe the grief of reality will crush us if we stay here too long.
Akilah:
It will, it will
Libby:
But let's go there for a minute.
Akilah:
I don't want people to get imprisoned or feel frustrated when that Yeah. Struggle with that. Yeah. I think that's part of the man you are living in this body. Yeah. You know, it's hard. And that's why I don't see it as either, or, like, I don't think of this as ability to imagine or not, I think it's about being on a continuum. And to me, even when, like even when my clients imaginations, but to me, even there some, and they still have some kind of colonial roots. I'm okay with that because I think of it as being, I think about the fact that just even being able to even say, let's imagine is already revolutionary for so many people. Like, wait, I can imagine I can create. Yeah. You know, Adrienne says that, I may have said this before, maybe I didn't.
Akilah:
We are in an imagination battle. And just for people to think that they can stand and be in the battle with armor and make a choice and have a position is enough for me to be like, the work is beginning. And you will, for the rest of your life, you will have to be imagining and re-imagining. I am still imagining, just in your conversation, I wrote also that you said that I need so you take back to my course and re-imagine like, you're gonna here next night, I swear. But it doesn't end. Right. And that's okay.
Libby:
No, it's a practice. I mean, it sounds like it's a practice that you have to build and rebuild,
Akilah:
Rebuild and rebuild. And speaking of build, the D stands for develop. So after, I imagine, you know, what am I developing now? How do I put my imagination into action? What do I want to create? You know?
Libby:
I bet that's so big.
Akilah:
But it, you know, I, so this morning, because I record videos as well with in clients who are willing or interested for teaching. I was looking at one of my recordings this morning, a mixed race couple, in Europe. And when I asked them what it was, and I had them do relational imagination, right. Where they can construct, you know, what the relationship would look like, you know, if they didn't have to deal with certain things. And we did Drew, right. And at the end of it, the black partner said, you know, it's so nice to just have to be able to create as opposed to just solve problems. And I was like, oh yeah, that is nice. You know? And I understand why that means so much for her in particular because she's I mean, she said with so many bipoc feel, she's like, I don't have time to do this because I'm too busy trying to survive.
Akilah:
And you know, when she said that and she was able to develop this thing with her partner and then strategize and talk about how they're gonna do this, it I realized how even that simple act was an act of liberation for who? So the d is developing, what am I going to create now? And then the E is evolved. And I think that's very important because I think after we've built something, we need to go back to the, it's like the E feels almost like a pivot again,
Libby:
Back through the whole,
Akilah:
Yeah. I'm going back to me. So now that I've created this thing, who am I, what is the information that this is giving me about me? And I said, so like, after I sat with, I've sat for the last however many months, probably close to more than a year with this work. I'm building this thing and I'm still building this thing. And now I will be honest. Now I am experiencing myself differently. Yeah.
Libby:
The disconfirming experiences.
Akilah:
Yes. See it right now, you're giving me more things again to put in
Libby:
I'm just feeding you back to you. Yeah because you said I need to create these disconfirming experiences. And then what I'm hearing is once you've done that, you have to like catalog them, notice them, and then again, go back through and build on them. Yes. How am I different now that I've built this? Yes. How differently do I feel in my body? How differently do I feel with my partner or partners? You know?
Akilah:
Who am I now? Yeah.
Libby:
Who am I now? What am I becoming? And then do I like that?
Akilah:
I listen, I wanna tell you, I wanna, I really wanna pause here. Okay. Who am I now is a very important question. And I wanna tell you why it's so important, especially for people from the global south. Remember, we are an indigenous land, and we are and all the names we have are names that have been given to us. Yeah. Trinidad and Tobago is not Trinidad's names, names, sorry. Sky Iri. Right. From the indigenous people. So who am I now is a big question. Even can you listen to Resmaa's work. Around in his book, my Grandmother's Hands, he talks about what he notion of race was created. Yeah and that, you know, for a long time, it was a race, you know, this stratification. And the division was created and began to recognize closer, I think, to the morning 17th century. I think he talks about late 17th century. But the point is that when that started become a thing, then you began to understand yourself as black or negro. And it became, we began to have Negro and all these different, so we are always being named,
Libby:
Right?
Akilah:
Yeah. Black is a name you were always being named. And the naming that takes place in, and in that last place, e is so very important. I wanna say something else about naming Eduardo Duran in his book on Healing the Soul Wound talks about, you know, naming ceremonies and indigenous culture, you know, and when we, that's why I'm veering, but I I'm still trying to integrate it, I think as practitioners and as people. Cause I know we have a diverse audience. We have to be very, very careful about this industry and naming others and being named.
Libby:
Right.
Akilah:
He talks about, he said this, he's a diagnosis as like a naming ceremony.
Libby:
Oh my God. Oh my God.
Akilah:
Yeah. Is not
Libby:
No, You're, oh my God.
Akilah:
What is that? Oh
Libby:
My God. Yes. That's God.
Akilah:
Yeah. Let's pause and let's swallow that.
Libby:
No. Let's just sit there with Wait. Because like, you just named something in a different way for me that just like, course, I mean just.
Akilah:
Yeah. It listen when I read that, read or listen, you know, cause I live on audible. I sat there, there are times that I have to just sit down, but I read it some place I pause and God write something, right? So I'm at a very interesting relationship with the industry, right? So my client, and I'm bringing all this back, I veer the story, but I swear they're part of the bigger thing.
Libby:
No. Okay. It makes so much what you're saying makes you're fine. Like this is, I'm just, I'm on the ride with you.
Akilah:
My client the other day in one of our sessions says, “Oh you know I’m OCD” and I said, hold on, before you go off into diagnosing yourself with O C D, I need you to understand that even that definition is part of a wider industry. And that they're like, there's a reason why when you label yourself and diagnose yourself, somebody benefits right? From you label you validate an entire industry. And I'm not, I wanna be clear. I'm not trying to discard, I'm trying to expand. So,
Libby:
No, I, no, I get it. Because like, you know, there's the flip side of it, right? Which is you reclaim labels.
Akilah:
Yeah, exactly. And so I'm very, very careful with naming myself, with naming clients, with them, naming. I'm very, very careful. And it's because of that thing that I, every time when Eduardo said it, diagnosis is a naming ceremony, I'm like yeah. And I want you to understand the politics of naming as well. Who benefits and who loses when we name. Yeah. I'm not trying to discard, don't come after me.
Libby:
No. But no, but that's, I, you know, even as I'm thinking about that, a thing that I'm thinking about with that, because I mean, you know, this goes on a lot in the polyamory and kink communities and non-monogamy communities, and like, names and labels are huge. Like huge. And there's so many of them. You know, there's, you name your sexuality, you name your gender, you name your, relational practice. Am I a relationship? Anarchist, polyamorous, whatever. And there's a lot of fighting about, you know, who gets to name themselves what, and what that really means. And some, you know, people talk a lot about like labels. Can feel like oppression. But labels can also set you free. And it really, and I think that one of the things that's important to notice whether you know what you're doing, because sometimes it can be like, I'm taking on a label to be included, to belong, to be part of an in-group, you know?
Libby:
And I, you know, I don't wanna take us too far away from where you are, but like, I'm just thinking about the, the, where you name yourself versus accepting a name from someone else. And like, really that goes, I think that goes back into the Rumble piece too, right?, like, why am I doing that?, where did I get that from? Why do I know that I am this mm-hmm. Why am I choosing that? and who benefits, who benefits from me sorting myself in this way. And I was, I've been thinking about that. I mean the, just in terms of like, as a polyamorous person, and I do identify that way, but there's a part of me that also feels like I other myself
Libby:
You know, I other myself as a protection.
Libby:
And then I make up, I'm not included in society, or I'm not included unless I like, hide or smooth or make respectable certain parts of myself. And like, that's just a little piece of what I know people who have way more axis of marginalization than I do experience the world, you know? So what if I didn't do that? Like, I mean, there's this piece that's like, I need to be who I am, and I need to show people that this is okay and normalize it. Like, I feel very called to do that. And so, like, I will name myself this, and I will like not hide it from people, and I will like, but then there's this flip side of can I just be in the world with people? Like, who gives a fuck who I love and how many and what we do together? Like, who cares? Can we just be in the world together without, you know, so there's. I don't know how that lands with you.
Akilah:
It land. I like witnessing other people rumble and imagine, you know? Yeah. And I wanna start.
Libby:
Yeah I Guess that's what I just did, didn't I?
Akilah:
I like seeing that. And I'll see, I'll tell you why I think that one of the things I've said, you know, my friend start and I talk about this, he tells me, kid told me I can't avoid it, but I don't wanna become anybody's guru. Like, I want people, when people talk about, you know, when people ask me like, who I wanna learn from you, I wanna be like, I'm like aim higher, you know? I don't wanna become, because I'm so complex and complicated, not a perfect human. And I want people to, I'm trying to teach you how, well, I hate the word teach, but I'm trying to facilitate your rumbling and imagining, and you don't have to buy into my imagination. Feel free to discard it. I want, all I want you to do is to give yourself permission to imagine. That's all I want you to do. I'm a, when I take, when I talk about imagination, I'm not asking you to be my disciple. Right. You know?
Libby:
Well, and I think that's so important what you're saying there, just as a professional, because I do think the whole idea that like, I'm a professional and I'm here to teach you, or I'm here to, you know, heal you or name you that's colonialism, right? In fact, I think it was you who said something like, if you have a client who's resisting what you're trying to give them, then maybe they're resisting being colonized.
Akilah:
Yeah. That wasn't me. That was Tracy Rogers who was talking to me. But it's okay.
Libby:
But I was just thinking, but I was thinking,
Akilah:
I think so
Libby:
But I, but like, when I'm hearing you talk about like, how you are with clients, and I feel that, I mean, this is the value that I hold too. Like, I don't want my clients to come and comply with what I'm, what, whatever agenda that I might have with them. I have no interest in that. I just wanna help them be them and find their way, and show them maybe what might be in the way of what they want to get to. You know, same thing that you say, I'm like, I don't know, like, please don't take my word for it.
Libby:
Please
Akilah:
That is ex Oh, I love that I like, don't take my words for any of this. I am giving you my epistemology. I listen to me, I am a black Caribbean woman who lives in a single parent home. Yeah. You know, one with an absent all of these things. Yeah. Or less to develop my way of knowing the world, I am sharing perspective. And, and if you want to appear from my perspective, that's fine, if you want, you could do whatever you want. With my perspective,
Libby:
Pay for her perspective. She's got a good perspective
Akilah:
Here's what you don't need to do. You don't need to turn it into some kind of gospel that you have to follow.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and what I hear, I mean like going back to that concept of epistemology, like, and asking yourself, why do I know what I know? Mm-hmm. How, like that some of that is like really understanding how you make sense as an individual in the world. And it sounds like part of your work with clients is I wanna help you find how you know things. Yeah. And I want you to find your own way of knowing, and I want you to bring me into it. Like, help me learn how you know, what you know. And I think that's so essential. And again, one of those things that I think when you go to seek help with somebody, I mean, for me, I''m working on this episode about like, how do you find good help? Like, how do you find someone who can really help you? And one of the things that I think is crucial, if you're gonna work with any professional therapist, coach, peer coach, anybody who you think might be able to help you, is that they have an eye towards a humility about their own epistemology and a willingness to, you used the word hybridize or hybridization, like epistemological hybridization. And that's like, I'm going to not show up with my epistemology and impose it on the work we're doing together. If I do that, then I'm not gonna help you.
Akilah:
It's not, and it's not, I'm not bringing you into your own imagination.
Libby:
I'm not Yeah. I'm not empowering you at all. I'm not centering you. And yeah, that's so, honestly, you know, narcissistic Right?
Akilah:
And the sight of your healing is a site of imagination, huh?
Libby:
Yeah. Oh, say that again. Say that again.
Akilah:
The sight of your healing is the site of imagination. You, it's, if you think of neurological neurobiologically, it also makes sense, because, you know, when we feel safe to imagine is when the brain is integrated, right? When the three, when the mid-brain and the, when the mid-brain and the high brain and the four brain are all in conversation and they're nice and integrated, that's when you have the freedom to kind of imagine. And that is also the sight of healing. So neurobiological imagination makes sense. And it's where it's at. And in a, I guess that's only final things I wanna say, that, you know, we're not helping people if we, well, no, I don't wanna impose, but that's my, we're not helping people if we can't get them to a place where they could imagine, you know? Yeah.
Akilah:
You know, cuz even when they, when we're not with them as therapists, we, and stuff comes up, we want them to be able to imagine how to tell, to take care of themselves right now. And I think when, you know, when you're, when you're able to imagine it's like a disconfirming experience. It says to your brain, I know how to take care of myself. Yeah. there's always care. And there's so many things I think that happens in your body when you're able to do that. So yeah, I'm all for it. I'm all for helping clients. Imagine. I want to reiterate, I'm not trying to discard other models because
Libby:
No, you just wanna add because, and you wanna make them more effective. Because if you don't, like you said, if you don't have someone in that place of imagining, if you don't have that, someone in that place of understanding how they know what they know and you're in that together. And I'll add one more thing, which is something you said earlier before we got on the call before we start recording. And you said you always try to ask clients, where is your heal? Where is your healing already? Like, where have you experienced healing and what does that look like? and I think that, again, when I think about like, what kinds of disconfirming experiences have you already had, what kinds of things do you want more of? Like do you know that you've already created in your life? And when I think about like how important that is to bring into imagination, to fuel imagination and maybe to bring your body into that integrated state, you know, that's so key. And I guess for people, you know, cuz you know, Akilah and I could probably nerd out about like our work , but like, you know, I know a lot of people listening to this are people who are doing their work within themselves and of course, so are we. Right? Like, so,
Akilah:
Yeah.
Libby:
You know, cause we're also humans in the world having to heal in this
Akilah:
In some interesting ways with some complex stuff.
Libby:
Yeah. In this, what I say capitalist hellscape that we, that we have to survive in, but you know, I think I wanna just make sure that I say that like, you can talk you can, if if this resonates with you and you wanna reach out to Akilah, or you wanna reach out to some other helping professional to do this work and say to that person, to the professional that you work with, Hey, have you heard of Akilah Riley Richardson. And can you learn about her stuff so that you can help me? Cause her framework's amazing. but you can also bring this to your own self. Like, I wanna just name that. Like, I don't think that healing has to come through professionals. I think healing can come through your own self-work. Yeah. so you know, you can have someone guide you through Akilah's pride model those steps.
Libby:
But I'm imagining that like, once you've taught your clients these things, they're gonna be continuing to do them for the rest of their lives. Going through that cycle of, you know, pivot, rumble imagine. And then what was the d the D was develop, develop and evolve. And like, I'm just gonna keep going through that and I love it. I and, just to make a plug, cuz Akilah's doing, an amazing course that's coming out in May. I don't wanna steal your thunder, I want you to talk about it. But I wanna name that she's gonna teach all of this to you and like, so much, much more. And I guess, as we close out, I'm wondering if you wanna just say a little bit about where people can find you, what you're gonna be doing, because you've got a lot of irons in the fire and I want everyone to know about them.
Akilah:
Yeah, I mean there's some interesting things coming up in March I'm going to be at the, or it's psychotherapy network or talking about relational privilege and how to support.
Libby:
And I'll be there
Akilah:
about to support couples who experience discrimination. In May we're doing the relational privilege and systemic trauma course through the Academy of Therapy Wisdom. Hi, Brian Spielmann, and Naisha Heat and all the other people there that I love. And I'm so excited. We're gonna have some exciting bonus speakers. We have Resmaa Menakem who's joining us. We have, Adrienne Maree Brown who's joining us. Stan Tatkin, Juliane Taylor Shore, Tracie Rogers, Sarah Malik, Joseph Wayne, Rafaella Smith-Fiallo. There's so many. I feel like I'm forgetting somebody. Or God who's name. John Edwards. Right? I feel like I'm still forgetting somebody.
Libby:
But people can find that on the therapeutic website.
Akilah:
You can find that. So go to my website, Akilah.Riley. That's not, the name of my website. AkilahRiley-richardson.com.
Libby:
And I'll link that in the show notes so you Yeah,
Akilah:
Yeah. And click on and you'll see the stuff that I'm doing. I'm hoping to be able to, be at some other conferences this year. But yeah, exciting stuff. We're gonna push forward. Just make it happen.
Libby:
Sorry, will you say that last thing again cuz it got a little, it got glitchy.
Akilah:
I said I hope to be doing some other conferences again this year and I'll share that information with you. Yeah,
Libby:
Yeah. Akilah thanks for being here. This has been just an amazing conversation, and.
Akilah:
We are all the cast in a rule that we didn't pick. That's my new line that I'm going to add my slide. I'll quote you, Libby S.
