Privacy, Secrecy, and Transparency with Jessica Fern (Part 1)
Polysecure author, Jessica Fern joins Libby to talk about a much-asked for topic, Privacy, Secrecy and Transparency. Together they share their own experiences, what they've learned, and how they advise people to handle sharing information. It can be tricky, but there are ways to make it easier!
SHOW LINKS
Polysecure books
Southwest Lovefest (use code 'go slow' for 10% off)
Transcript
Libby:
I'm excited to share another two-part episode with Jessica Fern. Now I'm guessing some of you listening might know who Jessica Fern is. She is the author of Polysecure and the Polysecure Workbook, which just recently came out. She's also a psychotherapist, a coach, and a certified clinical trauma professional. And she's also just awesome and my friend, and I'm so grateful that we were able to grab this time together from our both of our busy schedules.
Speaker 3:
On this episode, we together answer like a little group of listener questions that all around the topic of privacy, transparency, secrecy, et cetera, and basically how and what do you share and with whom and when, and all of that, which is something that comes up a lot in my work end and in hers as well. One last thing I wanna mention before we dive into the episode is that Jessica and I will also both be teaching at the Southwest Love Fest Conference in Tucson, Arizona in April. I cannot say enough wonderful things about Southwest Love Fest. This will be my fourth year attending and my third year teaching as part of the conference. I just think that Sarah and Kate, who are the event organizers, put on an amazing, event. I find that they bring in, amazing speakers and teachers with topics that are like 1 0 1, level 2 0 1, level 5 0 1 level in all aspects of non-monogamy and relationships and sex and understanding yourself.
Speaker 3:
And it's just an incredible time to be there, learn stuff, connect with other people, and just be in a space where people are really interested in talking about how to do relationships better and how to love each other better, and how to live in this world that is not necessarily always friendly to, people who are living, living and loving outside the box. So if you want to come to Southwest Love Fest, I encourage it heartily, again, it's in Tucson, Arizona. The dates are April 14th through the 16th of this year. And, if you want to get 10% off your ticket to Southwest Love Fest, you can use my secret coupon code, which I'm teaching a workshop on how to go slow, in dealing with all kinds of stuff that might come up in relationships, like how to slow down, cuz sometimes slowing down really helps.
Speaker 3:
And I'm teaching that with my partner Kyrr kark. And so the code for getting your 10% discount at Southwest Love Fest is goslow, all one word. So use that coupon code if you register to get 10% off. And then please come find me and say hello. I would love to meet a whole bunch of you wonderful listeners at the conference. And if you want, maybe we can even set up like a making polyamory work meet and greet. I would love to do that. So if you're interested in that also let me know. Let me know if you're gonna show up. Okay, now we're gonna get to the conversation with Jessica Fern.
Speaker 3:
Well, Jessica, I'm so excited to have you on making polyamory work. we've been scheduling and rescheduling this call for a little while and I'm so glad, I'm so glad that we're both here and, uh, I'm excited about what we're gonna talk about today. Me too. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Cool. So I'm gonna read these questions from listeners. So we, Jessica, you know, I kinda gave you a list of questions that you could pick from that you would like to answer together, and you found three that kind of were on the same ish topic. And so yeah, the theme. So it's a theme and I love that and I think that's perfect. So the theme is privacy, transparency and secrecy and how do you navigate sharing information. Yep. And so the first question that I got from a listener was, I have a question about something you haven't covered.
Libby:
Much privacy. Everyone has different expectations ranging from no secrets among partners to everything between us is in confidence always. Are there general guidelines for how to navigate this or is this something to be addressed individually only? And at what point do these discussions need to happen? In other words, if I start flirting with someone, should I assume that everything between us is private immediately or assume that it's my partner's business until they stay otherwise, or what? So that's the first one. Great. And I think that's just kind of a great over overall Yes. Question. And it's a question I get a lot from my clients too. Yeah. So I'm really glad this listener answer asked it. And I'm gonna go ahead and pair it with the second question, which is, you know, a little more specific, which is, you know, hi I am new to your podcast and I have recently fallen in love with someone who's polyamorous and I've historically been monogamous and I still feel mostly that way.
Libby:
And what, right now I'm trying to navigate this whole new world. And I'm wondering, have you talked about when your hinge shares intimate details about, your sex life with them, with his other partner? I don't wanna be a prude, this, listener says, but I feel a little bit like my privacy has been a bit violated and this person in this email didn't go into detail about like why or what or how. So I'm making up a lot about like what was going on there, but it sounds like what, this person is saying is that their partner told a lot of intimate sexual details to his other partner without checking with Yeah. The new person. And this new person's like, well, is that okay? I don't feel okay. But is that the norm? So
Jessica:
Yeah, these are great. Yeah. Which should we start with?
Libby:
Um, I feel like I wanna start with the second one, actually.
Jessica:
Me. Yeah. I was like, I'm jump into that one, those details. Yeah. So do you wanna jump in first or?
Libby:
I think maybe the first thing to say about this is actually that both of these people are asking the question what's normal, right? Like, what, what is normal? What's okay, what, you know, what's the policy and procedure here? Because I just don't know. Right. And you know, it's interesting that the second question was asking the question, like, I'm from a monogamous mindset. Do you do things different if you're poly than the way that I would just kind of automatically do things? And again, you know, as a person who has never really gotten social conventions very easily. Yeah. And, and so I really do have to kind of get really clear on it and ask a lot of questions. You know, I've always had to do that, you know, I understand this desire for norms, but like, I don't even know what's normal for monogamy. I don't know. I think that actually the idea that there is a normal for monogamy is actually maybe, not true either. You know, I think everybody does things a little differently even in monogamy.
Speaker 1:
Exactly. It's
Libby:
Just that it's all unspoken. Right. And and not explicit. But the thing that I would say is what I'm making up this person, where this person is coming from is that everything behind closed doors is private. Because I do think that is a norm that I see out in monogamy world. Like we don't really talk about the intimate details of our relationship with anybody. Is what I see as kind of the norm. Is that what you see?
Jessica:
I think so, yeah. I would say that's the norm in monogamy, that what we do with client behind closed doors is ours. I like that. Yeah. And yet it feels like, of course there's exceptions, you know, that like women or femes are like sharing it with their girlfriends or things like that.
Jessica:
Right. That that's where you share the details with your, you know, your besties, so to speak. Um, so in more heteronormative relationships that can be, you know, those roles are bend a bit with your friends.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and for sure it has been with mine, but again, yeah. I'm not, I've always been like, I don't think I'm a good barometer for what's normal.
Jessica:
Right.
Libby:
And then we get into polyamory where, or any kind of non-monogamy really where um, like we're already not doing what's normal Yeah. Or what's considered quote unquote normal. I think it's very normal. But
Jessica:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
So I'm wondering when, you know, when your clients come to you, Jessica, with this question, cuz I think we both said we get this a lot, right. What, how do you tend to answer?
Jessica:
Yeah. Well, thinking of this person who said intimate details of their sexual experiences were shared, right? Yeah. And they don't wanna be a prude. So right there I'm just like, ouch, prude, like
Libby:
Yeah, she's being hard on herself. Right.
Jessica:
It's a self-judgment. Right?
Libby:
Actually I shouldn't say she cuz I don't know. Oh yeah.
Jessica:
Actually they didn't know. Okay. We don't know. Okay. Yeah.
Libby:
We don't know. Yeah. Right.
Jessica:
Okay. So this person we don't know, but they are being hard on themselves Yeah. And judging themselves sort of in an extreme that like you're a prude. Right. And I think this happens a lot in non-monogamy that people are like, if I don't wanna watch my partner be sexual with someone else right in front of me, or hear them have sex in the next room, then I'm not polyamory enough. Or I'm a prude. And there's this thing that happens in polyamory where it's like, why have your rights just been taken away? you know, your rights to like preferences, boundaries, consent, you know what you wanna be exposed to what you don't, and obviously privacy, so, right. Yeah. So I think yes, if you're not okay with your partner telling other people about intimate sexual details, that is a healthy completely okay. Boundary. Yes. You know, that like, what's the minimum that other person needs to know to feel like we're all practicing safer sex agreements and in alignment with enough transparency. So, how far did we go? That's the thing that's on the table to share. Right. But all the intimate details, no, I don't think that has to be shared unless that's an erotic fun thing for everyone involved and you're saying, yes, let's do it.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and I think you, you said a word in all of that that I wanna pull out, which is consent. Yeah. Which is consent. Because consent is, I think the name of the game here in general when we're talking about privacy and secrecy and transparency and all of it because, there's like two components to consent, right? There's me protecting my own boundaries, right? like what is, what feels sacred and important to belong to me? And that no one else be allowed to just violate my boundaries? And in that case, if like this person's sexual activities with their partner feels like private to them and not something that they want shared without their permission, then and it shouldn't. I just wanna say just for anybody listening objectively, if you're thinking that you might want to share something that feels like it might possibly be private and it couldn't, it may not be sex, it may be, you know, they got in a car accident last week and they're feeling embarrassed about it and they may, that might feel private to them, right?
Libby:
Or their cat just died or whatever. You know, like anything that might feel like something that feels intimate to them, it's actually a generally a really good practice to ask, Hey, is it okay if I share this with my other partner or my best friend or my mom or whoever, right?
Jessica:
Like Right. Is it mine to share?
Libby:
Yeah. And that's a thing that I always kind of keep in my head a lot is, is this story mine to share and did I ask permission to share it if it's not? And it, I mean, I will just say to this listener, you know, yes, your privacy was violated
Jessica:
Yes. Right?
Libby:
Cause, nobody checked with you. Nobody checked with you.
Jessica:
And then it creates a power dynamic where this other person that they may or may not know this metamour right now has a lot of details that they might not have those kind of details on that person.
Jessica:
Right? and this Right. And who knows what the hierarchy setup was here, but that first, there was a first partner before them. Right. And that in itself creates a dynamic. Right.
Libby:
Well, and that's, that speaks to like, where this crashes into couple privilege too, right? Yeah. Where it's like, you know, it's so interesting to me that this person isn't like, well, but you know, tell me all about your sexual activities with your other partner, you know? Exactly. And it's interesting how that happens. Where it, I mean, you highlighted it just so clearly, like the information was going one way, right? The information about this new partner was going to the established partner. And I hear about that a lot.
Jessica:
Yeah. I have a story about this actually. Shall I? Yeah. I was in a relationship with a man and he had a partner before me, uh, her and, um, he was telling me about some kind of thing going on between them and he just started to screenshot their texts and sent it to me. And I was like, whoa, like, does she know you're just like screenshotting your texts, you know, it's one thing for him to say these are the things that are going on. But he was like, well, it's just easier to do that. And I was like, do you do this with my texts? Yeah. He's like, right. And he was like, yeah, I have, I was like, no way. You know, like our dialogue is private to us. If you wanna share with her certain things, I'm okay that you're relaying them.
Jessica:
But just to send screenshots of our conversations wasn't okay. And then she, so in a similar vein, she wanted to know all the details about his and my sex. And it was really, and it was the couple privilege was this is what they had done with everyone else before. Yeah. Right? and cuz everyone else before also, I don't think think was really a relationship. It kind of was more of a hookup. So it had this like, it was leveraged as like almost foreplay for them the next time they were together, you know?
Jessica:
Yeah. And that was also, I was like, no, like, you know, you can share if you liked the sex, if you wanna keep having sex with me. Like those are things you can share with your partner or if you're exploring new things within yourself that you want your partner to know that like, you know, but no, like detail by detail what we did and Yeah.
Libby:
Well, and that speaks to back going back to consent. Cuz there's another piece in here that I wanna like put a pen and talk about later cuz there's the information is like, belongs to me. What belongs to me. What belongs to you? Yeah. What's my consent? What's your consent? What affects you? All of that. And then there's information is power.
Libby:
And information indicates who's powerful in that situation. But I wanna go back to consent because, there's another piece to the consent, which is then also like what you were saying before, what affects me, right? And this is where it can get really hairy, honestly. Yeah. because, you know, and, and here's where we can talk maybe about STIs, you know, things like that. And this came up in my community a whole bunch where like if one partner, if one of my partner's partners maybe had some kind of STI exposure right? That was their private information, like that's their private health information. And at the same time, if my partner has a sexual relationship with them and then I have a sexual relationship with them, then that information affects me.
Libby:
And it's tricky because like I'm not necessarily entitled to know who of their, like depending on the privacy desires of the other partner, I might not have the right to know, like specifically it was them and specifically what they might have or, you know, anything like that or what might be going on for them. Yeah. I'm only entitled to know what's going on for my partner as thus as far as it impacts me. And at least that's where kind of I draw the line, but other people might feel differently about it. And Right. And it, and it's tricky because, certain things might affect me that still might not be mine to know, you know? Exactly.
Libby:
Like I might be really uncomfortable if my partner engages with a particular sex act with someone besides me and you know, and if we have an agreement around it, like, and we've made some kind of agreement that they will disclose that, then they need to, you know, they need to make sure that they've gotten the agreement from the other person that they can disclose it and all that stuff. But like, it might affect me, but it might not be my business, you know? Totally. And Right. And like I might really wanna know
Libby:
And In fact how I feel about my relationship with my other partner, but I still might not get to know about it. and that can be really uncomfortable and so and you know, and, and at the same time I have a right to informed consent
Libby:
The people I'm in a relationship with. Yeah. I guess I'd love for you to talk about how you like, I mean, and this, this feels kind of personal most like, you know, like how you navigate this.
Jessica:
No, it's great because I think Right what you're talking about is sometimes a setup of like your partner had an STI scare with another partner. Yeah. And they can just come to you and say, Hey, I have a partner, there's an STI scare, here's what you and I need to do. Yeah. And that like works. Right. But if they only have one other partner, then you know who it is.
Libby:
Yeah. You can do the math. Exactly
Jessica:
Right. You can do the math or maybe they have two, but you're close with the other one and you know who it is. Right. So there's just like we can know, right? Right. I mean, I've been in the situation with the people I just talked about where there was an STI scare and she was the one that came to me cuz it was, you know, she had an experience and she came directly cuz we had that relationship and that felt really wonderful. Right. And then her and I could process it and then all three of us could process it through together. What are we gonna do? What are we not gonna do? Right. So when it was all above board and transparent, it felt like we were a team figuring out something that was scary. Yeah. I think when there isn't transparency, and of course people have embarrassment and shame, but when we shut the doors to people knowing everyone starts to get scared and panicky and we start to feel really isolated and alone in this thing that was a joint, this wasn't an isolated experience, you know?
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and that's, and that can be where it can get really tricky if you are in a situation where you're not in good relation with all of your metamours. Right. Exactly. Or teramours, you know, further steps out. And you know, it's really nice when you can have that kind of tight-knit polycule feeling with your partners where you can all sit, like you said, kind of sit down together and collaborate on hey, this is what happened. This is how we're gonna handle it. These are the protocols we're all gonna take and et cetera. But I mean, I've definitely been in the experience where that wasn't the case where I had a, metamour who was not communicative with me, didn't want, like, my business was not her business and her business was not my business. And there was this, it was awful.
Libby:
In fact, I actually, I think it was the major thing that led me to temporarily break up with the partner that I was with is, um, we were all on this like, online Facebook discussion group. One of my, this wasn't even a partner, it was like a kind of a play partner. Like someone who I had played with with one of my other partners. And they posted on the, on a shared group that was very private. Like it was just, like fems and non-binary folks. And we would post about like, you know, makeup and buddy stuff and you know, how to cure yeast infections and things like that. And it was like this really lovely bonded group for the time that it was really great. And this person was posting, you know, again, some intimate details about some discharge that they were experiencing and was like, like, you know, what might this be?
Libby:
And my Metamour saw that post knew, again through information that wasn't really theirs to have through my partner that I had had a sexual encounter with them and was like, does that person have an STI and does that mean Libby's been exposed to an STI and does that mean that my partner that we share has been exposed to? I mean, it was this whole thing. And then all of these conversations were happening between the two of them about it that I had no idea about. And they were trying to come up with solutions around it that I had no idea about. And the reality was, nobody asked me anything about it. And I, if they had asked me if we had that relationship, which would've been, I actually would've preferred that, I could've told them we didn't exchange any bodily fluids during our sexual encounter and the Right. So I was at no risk of contracting anything from them.
Libby:
Like, you can have lots of sex without exchanging any bodily fluids. yeah.
Libby:
Right? True statement.
Libby:
Yeah. And it was really fun
Jessica:
and you're bringing in a whole other factor here of social media, like,
Libby:
Oh my god,
Jessica:
That forums and people complaining about metamours and partners or revealing things in these public forums, even if there is a closed group. Right. And you're not the only one I've heard that like information spreads and gets shared that way in a,
Libby:
Or even just from a shared community or Right. From stalking someone on Instagram and seeing what they're posting about. And I've had clients who've like noticed that their partners, like somebody had liked something on their page Yeah. Or comment or were commenting a lot. And then they were asking questions like, what is going on with that person? And, you know Yeah. That's a whole, I mean that is a whole another thing where I mean I've actually have blocked people
Libby:
From being, having access to, things that I've been posting. And in fact, this Metamor was one of them after that happened, I was like, okay. Like blocked.
Jessica:
Yeah. Because it's like causing drama. Right?
Jessica:
It's avoidable drama.
Libby:
It was, there was a lot of drama. I mean a lot of drama that would've been circumvented actually by being more transparent and being more willing to communicate and ask questions. Yeah. But I also wanna highlight the reason why that wasn't happening was not because we were like deliberately trying to be secretive or, you know, get power over each other, anything like that. It was that we really struggled to communicate effectively and collaboratively. And so we just decided for our own well being to not, rather than to work on it. Yeah. And really that wasn't a mutual decision, that was a her decision. But like I respect it. I think a thing worth saying here, and maybe this can go into our other topic, that, you know, from my perspective there's what's allowed, there's what needs to be explicitly negotiated, which I think, you know, we're both really clear and answered to the first listener's question that like, you need to, you actually do need to explicitly negotiate where your comfort levels are with, with what's shared and not shared. And there is nothing that is just like a hundred percent fair game if it involves another person.
Jessica:
Right.
Libby:
Like you should check with them. And if you know for yourself, like these are the things that I definitely will share that's also worth communicating. Like, this is my policy, this is what I tend to like to do. So that someone can opt in or opt out of that as well. Cuz you also can't control what someone will share or not share, you know? Yeah,
Jessica:
Exactly. Right into that first question. Even like, if I flirt with someone, do I need to share? And that is case by case, you know? Absolutely. I've had with one partner we're like, yeah, like until you're having genital contact, I don't really need to know. Cuz that was the nature of our relationship. Or like, until there's like touching, you know, at that level, I don't need to know with other people. It's like, once you're like planning and like in an official dating situation, I wanna know. Yeah. You know, I have one partner who's like, I do wanna know when you have flirts, cuz it's fun for like it excites them. Yeah. You know, and it's not really like if I had a flirt with a barista, it's, I'm not breaking anything for that barista. You know what I mean? Like, it's fun to be like, yeah, they had these great tattoos and they flirted with me this way and, and we like doing that, you know? So it is case by case, but I think just making sure it's clear, what do you wanna know? What don't you need to know?
Libby:
Well, and, and I guess I'll add one more thing to that that just came up as you were talking. Like why do you wanna know?
Jessica:
Yeah. Why do you wanna know?
Libby:
Because I think that's really important too, because some people wanna know cause it's fun and hot and sexy. Some people wanna know because it makes them feel safe.
Jessica:
Yeah, exactly.
Libby:
Some people and some people don't wanna know because it makes them feel safe or they wanna hold onto their information because it makes them feel safe. Yeah. And I guess that's like, that's where, again, it can get tricky because someone's need for safety might bump up against someone else's need for safety. Exactly. And their safety needs might be conflicting. Like for me, I feel safe with a lot of information and that's because like, you know, I grew up in a family where there was a lot that just wasn't talked about. And, I would feel blindsided by things sometimes and sometimes there was some dishonesty. So for me to know what's going on also I think because of my neurodivergence and that sometimes I just like don't get stuff. So it's like, if you can just explain it to me, I feel safer.
Libby:
But I think for some people, and in fact I had someone show up in one of my discussion groups where because of a lot of trauma around feeling, you know, really violated her feeling was, I don't want you to talk about me to anybody, period at all. Like the the level of control that she wanted over her information was actually more than I think was reasonable or fair. Yeah. But like, it was coming from this place of that's the only way that I'm gonna feel safe or it feels like that's the only way I'm gonna feel safe.
Jessica:
Yeah. And there's a, I get it. And there's a parallel here to like, when someone becomes a public figure, right? that some of our life now is not completely private, you know, and there's a similar parallel, smaller degree in polyamory, especially non-monogamy, you know, where it's like, yeah, we, there is a certain allowance of people do need to know more information about us than we might have previously been comfortable. It kind of comes with this paradigm of relating
Libby:
Well yeah. Because of accountability. Because you have to because of the impact you can have on other people. Yeah,
Jessica:
Exactly.
Libby:
And yeah, and again, the ideal would be so I mean, going back to the ideal, like the ideal would be we all share with each other to support each other. Yeah. You know, to support our each other's needs and feelings and joy and all of that. And ideally, I mean like your scenario that you described with the STI scare where you all like came together and could talk about it. Like that's that's ideal.
Jessica:
Yeah. It was ideal.
Libby:
It's not always possible. Yeah. And so it really is. I mean just, I do think it's really case by case. And, and I had these clients that I, that were brand new to polyamory. Like they weren't even really practicing it yet, but they were just exploring. And this question came up because one of them was developing just a really intimate friendship, and she was like, I don't know what I'm allowed to say about. Friendship with my partner and I don't know what my partner wants to know and how do I figure that out? And I was like, ask. Yeah. You can ask,
Jessica:
Right?
Libby:
It's like mind blowing, like, oh my God, I could just ask how do you feel about me sharing this? And I still ask all the time, not just of my partners, but like a family member recently was telling me about a really traumatic incident that happened and they were telling me privately because we have a trusted relationship, but you know, they're a member of my family. And so I asked them, you know, are you comfortable with me sharing this with like my partner, my mother-in-law, like whoever. And you know, I think that asking permission to share is like a great practice and asking and asking and checking on it periodically over and over again. Like not assuming that, you know, always what's okay to share and what's what's okay not to share.
Jessica:
Yeah. And I usually see people feel very empowered when they or ask that and they get to then define the parameters. Okay, yeah, please just don't share this piece, but if you share this piece, it's okay.
Libby:
Yeah. It's so much better than just telling confiding in somebody and crossing your fingers and not knowing Totally. Where they're, whether they have good boundaries around this or not.
Jessica:
Yeah. Right.
Jessica:
Yeah. And the truth is, rarely do I see secrets actually stay as secrets. Like a lot of them come out, they leak, they slip with time. It, you know. Yeah.
Libby:
Well, and that brings us to our other, our other topic.
