Don't Ask, Don't Tell with Jessica Fern (Part 2)
In Part 2, Polysecure author, Jessica Fern and Libby talk about a very specific arrangement that relates to privacy/secrecy: the Don't Ask, Don't Tell (DADT) relationship. Together they discuss why you might want a DADT arrangement, when it can work, and when it might not.
SHOW LINKS
Polysecure books
Southwest Lovefest (use code 'go slow' for 10% off)
Transcript
Libby:
Welcome to part two of my conversation with Jessica Fern, if you haven't yet listened to part one of my conversation with Jessica, I recommend you pause this recording and just jump on over and listen to the first part of our conversation. First, now what we're going to get into is we're gonna talk about a very particular aspect of privacy and secrecy and transparency, which is the don't ask don't tell relationship.
Libby:
And we're gonna talk about why somebody might want that, how it can potentially work, ways we've seen it work, ways we've experienced it ourselves, and things you might wanna think about that might cause you to think twice about going for a Don't Ask Don't tell relationship. One last thing before we dive into the second half of the conversation with Jessica Fern is I wanna remind everyone that Jessica and I will both be teaching not together, but separately, at Southwest Love Fest in April in Tucson, Arizona. And I just, again, I wanna just say this is my fourth year attending Southwest Love Fest. It is the only conference that I have attended that many times, and it is the third year that I am teaching at Southwest Love Fest, which is a tremendous honor. And I just, I really would encourage you if you are in the area, or if you have the means to travel, to really think about putting this on your calendar.
Libby:
And if you are going to go, I have a treat for you, which is I can give you a special coupon code, 10% off of your registration. Just use the code, go slow when you are checking out, when you're purchasing your registration. And if you decide to go, please reach out to me and let me know, because I would love to meet up with my listeners, at the conference. And like I said, I'll be teaching a workshop on the power of going slow in your relationships with my wonderful and amazing partner, Kyrr Kark. So please, please come. I hope I will see you at Southwest Love Fest in Tucson in April. And it's, April 14th through the 16th. Now onto part two of my conversation with Jessica Fern.
Libby:
Yeah.
Libby:
Well, and that brings us to our other, our other topic.
Jessica:
Yes.
Libby:
So Jessica thought that it would be a good idea to tack on talking about don't ask, don't tell here. Yeah. And, and I did get a listener question about this, which was just, you know, I'd love to hear more about this
Jessica:
Right.
Libby:
And, and because I feel like don't ask, don't tell is like the ultimate, or maybe not the ultimate, I suppose having an affair is maybe the ultimate,
Libby:
Privacy
Libby:
Secrecy at that, you know, you have the, on the extreme, the very integrated polycule who talks about everything with each other on the other end of the extreme. You don't have you have an affair and then like one step in, you have don't ask, don't tell
Jessica:
Exactly. Yeah,
Jessica:
Yeah. Great. So I think we could start with maybe when does it work? Have we seen it work?
Libby:
Yeah. Have you seen it work?
Jessica:
I have two incidents where, or examples where I've heard of it working. One was a man whose, wife had become paralyzed and could no longer be a sexual partner. And he was never gonna leave her. He was her caretaker. He was devoted to staying into that marriage. And she also had a lot of sickness and like complications from her paralysis. So they were in and out of the hospital all the time. It was a full time experience of, you know, medical caretaking. And she eventually, like she knew, she said, you need to go get your needs met and do that, and don't tell me. And it worked from what I know, you know, he had experiences separate and on the side when he could and didn't feel like he was giving up all of him to stay as a caretaker to his wife. And she did seem fine with never knowing. Like, I mean, their life was so busy with all this other stuff that it just, at that point it was almost irrelevant, you know? Right.
Libby:
Yeah. I've had someone similar that I've worked with who, that was their story as
Libby:
Well. Like their partner had a, I believe a TBI and a similar like caretaking environment where there was not a sexual relationship between them. It was a caretaking relationship. and she was like, well, I'm gonna get out and live my best life when I'm able. And there was an agreement between them that that was okay.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Libby:
Right. and another place that I could see it working, but I don't, I haven't, I had someone that I spoke to where this was their arrangement and then it did stop working, honestly. Yeah.
Libby:
It's like if you travel a lot for work, and
Jessica:
That's what I was gonna say, the
Speaker 2:
Business, right.
Libby:
and you have the, like, you know, certain mile radius rule, like no one within like a hundred miles of where we live or something like that. And, and then you're, you're having maybe a regular person that you're seeing, that you see at, that you work with or at a business conference that you go to every year or something like that. I could see that working. I'll just say that when with the person that I spoke to where this was their arrangement, you know, eventually, and again, eventually, like we're talking a decade later.
Libby:
There was some curiosity about, I'm now I'm interested, I wanna know. And then all of it kind of coming,
Jessica:
the reality of how much there was Yeah. Yeah.
Libby:
Was overwhelming and really challenging to that relationship. And then, I mean, I think that they did, you know, a great job of putting the pieces back together and working through it, but it was a lot. And I mean, so did it work? I guess it worked, but then it, the arrangement needed to change. Yeah. And I guess that maybe is normal. Like maybe don't ask don't tell is like a thing that is not meant to be a permanent arrangement, but
Jessica:
It's, yeah. I see it as like a cast, right. You know, like if you break a bone and you need a cast that's a temporary structure, and then eventually the cast is to come off and, you know, if you kept the cast on it doesn't work anymore.
Libby:
yeah. Cause you can't move,
Jessica:
Right. Because then you can't, and you need to move to keep healing, right and regain. Right. So, and we could probably find other analogies like that. Like Yeah, it works is I've seen it work in temporary situations, we're like, just for now, because we're having these other life stressors, like, I don't need to know or I don't wanna know certain things and let's just keep it at that.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and you have a story.
Jessica:
I do. So, you know, professionally, I would say I've only seen it, you know, for years though, intimately within my client sessions and other than one or two examples, the majority of the time it's like, Ooh, this isn't working . Right. And supporting people in how to, you know, bring more transparency to their non-monogamy, right? and healing or repairing the damage that the don't asks don't tell is caused and sometimes it's too much. So, but I found myself dating someone who was in a don't asks don't tell. And I was like, can I do this? You know, like, can I step into this?
Libby:
Well, can I ask you about that?
Libby:
Yeah. Because I feel like if you're in the position that you're in, where you, you generally know this isn't gonna work. Like why weren't you, why were you a yes to it initially? Like what was it that made you
Jessica:
I was, yeah, I was a curious to it, right? Because I did really like this person and initially we sort of had a shared reason for coming together. We wanted to do certain kink play. Okay. And we were like very compatible in exactly what we were looking for. So it was just like, wow, I haven't come across this and okay. Like, let's see, you know, and he had, and I really, I mean he did, he had full consent to go have experiences, but it was don't ask, don't tell, right?, I had enough reason to believe that that was the case. Right. cuz that's what comes up a lot for people is that people are cheating, but they're saying it's a don't ask, don't tell. And how do you know the difference? Right. I had enough to at least trust.
Jessica:
So, but yeah, pretty quickly this was like, this isn't just a plate partner. Like this is more, and we were getting very close and I realized, this just doesn't feel good. Initially it was from like an emergency contact situation. Like, if something happens to me, like my people know to pick up the phone and call you if I'm in the hospital. Like, they would know that they know your name. They would know to look right and like, let you know. Right. I'm in a coma. What happens if they're reverse? So he was like, it's true, you know, my my friends know about you. I'll let my friends know if there's ever a thing. Like they have your number now, reach out. And it was like, okay. You know, and then it would start to still be like the, the, you know, openness of information just didn't feel good to be a secret.
Jessica:
It didn't feel good to be a secret is what started to happen. Right. Especially because the people in my life could know about this partner. But it was like, and then I realized, wait a minute, this is not consensual anymore because your wife thinks your don't ask don't tell version is just hooking up with people not falling. Not falling in love, not creating a relationship, not creating a whole experience where now you're starting to live like another life. You know? Yeah. And that's where we realized like, with one partner, you're don't ask don't tell with me. You're full on polyamory. Like we, it felt like we were limping along cuz the structure that he was in or the style couldn't hold our relationship anymore and where it was growing.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and I guess maybe that's what what I'm hearing is maybe one of the key factors is like if there's something that, like another structural thing that Yeah. Prevents the relationship from growing beyond. I mean we could call it a, instead of a cast, we could call it a pot, you know, a pot of plant. Yeah. You know, if you keep the pot small enough and it's a plant that can thrive in a small plant pot, small pot then, then maybe it's okay, maybe it can work. Right. But that better be a plant that cannot grow too big.
Jessica:
Right.
Libby:
Because two things could happen. It could just die because it can't survive in that pot anymore. Or it'll break the pot cuz it's, it'll grow too big.
Jessica:
Yeah, no, that's exactly what it felt like. It was like the pot we're in is cracking pretty quickly cuz we're growing beyond it very quickly. Yeah. And there were some bumps because, because he was so used to not sharing things, there were things, and our relationship though was based on more transparency. There were a few times where it was like, that should have been something you shared. You know, that's something I needed to know. And it wasn't an intentional, you know, exclusion, but it was like, oh right, I'm just not used to this.
Libby:
You just have a practice of com compartmentalizing. Right.
Jessica:
He's like, I'm so practice and com compartmentalizing. Like, I have to like update my nervous system every time it's you because it's like, right, we're doing something completely different. You know? Yeah. So yeah, it hit its ceiling and he thankfully was able to say to his wife, we have to be open about being open. You know, you have to know that there's another person and they have a name. And at that, at the very least, you Know?
Libby:
Wow.
Jessica:
Yeah. Which I'm grateful for cuz it, you know, I was like, yeah, I can't continue in this structure much longer.
Libby:
Well, but then that can be really tough if that's a major renegotiation of what was going on for him over there.
Jessica:
It really has been. Yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. And I've seen that too. I mean that can be really tough. But I, and I like what you said, which is that there was a point where it was becoming non-consensual
Jessica:
Exactly.
Libby:
Like that what she thought she was consenting to as his wife was not what was happening anymore.
Jessica:
Yeah. And that's the, that was the place too where I was like, I don't wanna participate in that.
Libby:
Right. Yeah,
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and that's the thing that, I think is worth saying about don't ask don't tell is, you know, I what I'm making up about, he person that you were in a relationship with was like, you did think that it was a plant that would fit in a pot like you did think initially. It's this kink thing that you're gonna do together. And that's a place where I could see like it making a lot of sense to have that policy if that's what you know for sure. That you're always gonna want. Yeah. And of course, you know, then you, you sometimes don't know, sometimes something happens, it's unexpected and yeah, you have to update what you think you want. But I guess like that's not a bad reason to I guess enter into that kind of like go in that direction.
Libby:
But I think that if don't ask don't tell is something that is, like maybe bumpers for you or something to protect you because you're afraid the thing that, and maybe there's a hope that maybe you won't need it anymore. Or maybe there's a hope that, you know, your partner will, just protect you. I don't know. I, I guess the thing that comes up for me is this idea of sort of beginning as you mean to go on. and if you think that down the line, anywhere down the line, there might be a point where you're gonna wanna start knowing or if the dynamics are gonna change, which of course you can't always predict. I'm just thinking about that couple again, where for years, no, for years they had don't ask, don't tell and then much was revealed and how overwhelming that was. And I'm thinking about how much easier it might have been if it was coming in in drips, you know, if there was some kind of titration process
Jessica:
That's, I was just gonna use that word. It's one thing, right. If it's used to titrate the nervous system.
Libby:
Yeah,
Jessica:
Yeah, exactly. And also is the don't asks don't tell. Right. Like an initial strategy just to get on board and be like, it's enough to do this, let's not overwhelm ourselves, but ideally it's, you know, temporary and we start titrating or is it just an avoidance? Right,
Libby:
Exactly.
Jessica:
You know, and is it an avoidance strategy and you know, let's, I don't know, is this the elephant in the room or just being like honest, like a lot of these don't asks don't tell agreements. They're not arising from the healthiest relationships I've seen.
Libby:
Oh wow.
Jessica:
You know, they're not arising out of relationships that are, having healthy emotional connection and intimacy. You know, it's often there is a lot of avoidance. We can't share things. We keep having, you know, defend all the four horsemen. Right. There's a lot of criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling.
Libby:
Well, and there's probably a lot of other stuff they're avoiding dealing with. Exactly. And if they have this practice of avoiding Yeah. Then it just makes sense to stick with that strategy.
Jessica:
Exactly. Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, it is for good reasons. Like people have the structure of their family and their kids and their work and they don't wanna disrupt that, but their intimacy, their secure attachment at an emotional intimate level is pretty poor. But they're like, let's just maintain the structure of our life and raise our kids, you know, and keep our lifestyle and we don't have to really do much of this relationship stuff, you know, is what I see as well.
Libby:
Yeah. Well and yeah, I guess where I'm sitting cuz I always wanna like hold space for if people want a non-intimate Yeah. You know, business partner type relationship with each other and that's the kind of relationship that they want, who am I to say that that's wrong? Yeah. But I do think that then you have to be like, that has to be clearly an openly negotiated and if you're in a pattern of avoidance, you might not be able to say.
Jessica:
Exactly,
Libby:
by the way, I want no intimacy with you. I just want us to be, you know, business partners, co-parents, financial partners, et cetera. But like my emotional intimacy is, and sexual intimacy and whatever is is non-existent with you. It this is a transactional relationship.
Jessica:
Yeah. And I see that work a lot
Libby:
Yeah.
Jessica:
But I do see where I, when I see that work a lot, they know that the other person has partners. They know, they might even know those partners or, you know, they're not in this situation where like, you're caught going out to lunch with your partner now everyone thinks we're cheating or, you know, that kind of stuff.
Libby:
Well, and honestly, if you're able to have that kind of transparent conversation with your partner about like, here's what we really are to each other Yeah.
Libby:
Which again, completely reasonable and legitimate to do that. Why would it be scary to know about that they have other partners? Yeah. Like why would that be hard and scary? Right.
Speaker 1:
And maybe you don't wanna know details, but you just know, I'm gonna go spend the night or
Jessica:
Yeah.
Libby:
Gonna go see the person. Yeah. Okay.
Jessica:
Well, I feel inclined to, I dunno recap a little bit, you know, maybe what we're, what we've talked about, which is, you know, just to say with privacy it's important to negotiate it.
Libby:
you have a right.
Libby:
You have a right to have boundaries around shared privacy
Libby:
and have privacy. Absolutely, that's actually a consent issue.
Libby:
But there's the flip side of the consent issue, which is they're also some things people do have a right to know about you that you might be uncomfortable with them knowing, but they, like, there's certain things that maybe you can't totally, like you can't totally say no to everything. Like, or.
Jessica:
Exactly.
Libby:
or at least there's gonna be a friction there potentially.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Libby:
But there, but just because you're polyamorous doesn't mean it's the wild west and suddenly your whole personal life and everything about you is fair game for every single person that your partner might know, Yep. Or have known. Another thing to look at would be, when you're thinking about the flow of information, are there power dynamics at play? Yep. And look at those because if a more established partner feels entitled to know everything about their partners or their partners that they don't want things shared about them
Libby:
that's not cool.
Jessica:
Yep.
Libby:
and then don't ask, don't tell.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. There's some cases where it can work. I think we're suggesting if you're gonna try it, have it be more temporary than permanent
Libby:
And think about why
Jessica:
Think about why doing it. Right. Are you doing it just to avoid, and just sort of deny or is it about titrating so that you can integrate moving forward with non-monogamy and adding more and more information as you go. Yeah.
Libby:
Or are you in a very particular structure where it doesn't make sense to integrate this part of your life into this other part of your life.
Jessica:
Yeah. Right. I would say though, with even if you're not fully integrating, there can still be knowledge. Like minimum knowledge. Yeah.
Jessica:
I have another partner and that's where I'm going. Right.
Libby:
That's true.
Jessica:
Yeah. Yeah. Versus just leaving Right, Or lying.
Libby:
Or lying. Yeah.
Jessica:
And I think that's okay. So here's just one final thing. Often with don't ask, don't tell. It's not just don't ask, don't tell it encourage, it creates an environment where people find themselves needing to lie.
Libby:
Yeah.
Jessica:
To maintain the don't ask, don't tell. Right. So it's not just the absence of information, it becomes now the addition of having to say where you were, but you can't say where you really were. Like that starts to happen a lot.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and the other thing I can see there, if it's something being asked of you as a condition of you being able to pursue interest that you might have.
Libby:
But you're not, that's not what you want. Yeah. And you're not good at it and then you're, you're stuck kind of performing lies and stuff to just, I don't know that that's another place where again, you gotta think about are you really, is this something you can consent to and agree to for yourself, you Know?
Jessica:
Yeah. Exactly. And I see a lot of people who are put into, and this isn't just in don't ask, don't tell. This is also when you have partners that are, you know, in the closet about being non-monogamous. The secret invisible partners. I mean, eventually it can become sort of a trauma for them. Yeah.
Jessica:
Right.
Jessica:
To always be a secret to not get to be out. Right.
Libby:
Yeah. Well I feel like that this is such a rich topic and we could Yeah, we could keep talking about it. We could have like a part two, part three, part four.
Jessica:
Hopefully it'll generate more questions and then we can do a part two. Yeah,
Libby:
Yeah. Well I wanna thank you so much for being here with me, Jessica. And do you wanna tell a little bit about what you're working on now and where people can get more of you?
Jessica:
Yeah. Great, jessicafern.com is the easiest place and my Polysecure workbook just came out a few months ago, so that's a new thing people can get. My next book, polywise will be coming out later this year and I'm super excited about that one. Yeah. And I'm moving into some teaching this year, so I'll be doing a secure attachment with self workshop and I'll start to train some therapists and some polysecure stuff. So if people sign up for my website, they'll get sort of those announcements as I make them.
Libby:
fantastic. And we'll both be at Southwest Love Fest in Tucson, Arizona in mid-April. And I'll post about that in the show notes as well. You can see us both
Jessica:
There. Yes. Are you presenting?
Libby:
Yeah.
Jessica:
What are you presenting at?
Libby:
I am presenting with my partner Kyrr. We're gonna talk about how to move out of urgency and slow down and why that's important.
Jessica:
I like this.
Libby:
What about you?
Jessica:
Me and my co-parent and now co-author of the next book, David, we are talking about, um, co-dependency and non-monogamy and differentiation,I know.
Libby:
all that hot topics.
Jessica:
It's a chapter from the next book, so.
Libby:
Fantastic.
Libby:
Yeah. All right. Well, I will see you later Jessica. And please come see us in Tucson.
