Maintenance Sex with Emily Nagoski Part 2
In Part 2 of Libby's conversation with Emily Nagoski, there's a deeper conversation about the concept of "maintenance sex" and how you may be doing it to safe your relationship, but it may actually be destroying it.
Emily Nagoski's website: https://www.emilynagoski.com/ Emily Nagoski on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/enagoski/
Emily Nagoski's books (highly recommended!): https://bookshop.org/contributors/emily-nagoski-4318b5e2-0f22-4415-963b-ce5a1f467607
Transcript
Emily Nagoski:
They're trying to, like, sustain their relationship because they feel like having. Just having the sex is the thing that matters when it is the sharing of the pleasure that matters. Sexual frequency is correlated with sexual satisfaction only insofar as people have this idea that there's a frequency with which they are supposed to be having sex. And if they have sex at that frequency, they feel more satisfied because they feel like they're doing it right.
Libby Sinback:
Welcome to making polyamory work. Hi, I'm Libby Sinbach, and I want to thank you for joining me today. I'm a queer, polyamorous mom and an integrative relationship guide. I help people who are living and loving outside the status quo have extraordinary relationships because I believe relationships are at the core of our wellbeing as humans. I think love is why we're here and how we heal. So today it's part two of my amazing conversation with Emily Ngoski. If you haven't listened to part one yet, I would recommend you pause right here and jump back to listen to part one, because the conversation really does flow from part one to part two. But if you've already listened to part one, then we're just going to dive right into part two of my conversation with Emily Nagoski.
Libby Sinback:
I'm just thinking about that dynamic of when a partner's seeking out sex, and I'm thinking about, in this case, like a tetsis man, to meet that loneliness drive and their partner then doing that because they were socialized to think, oh, men have sexual needs. I need to meet their sexual needs. And what's coming up for me is thinking, one of the reasons I reached out to you is that I wanted to talk about this concept of maintenance sex.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And when I think about what's going on there versus scheduling sex or prioritizing sex or making sure that you have a conversation about sex. When I think about maintenance sex, I've heard multiple couples, couples that I've worked with, couples on podcasts, talking about the woman feeling like there's this clock in her head of like, oh, there's only so many days that I can say no before I have to say yes. Otherwise he's not going to be okay. And that creating just this dynamic of it's not for pleasure anymore, it's just caregiving.
Emily Nagoski:
Right? Yeah. So for me, so biologically, the difference between a drive and what sex is, which sex is an incentive motivation system. It is an innate motivational system. It is built into us, but it's not like hunger or thirst or connection. It is like curiosity or exploration, which is an innate built in motivational system.
Libby Sinback:
You're blowing my mind right now. Sex is not a drive. Yeah, sex is not a drive.
Emily Nagoski:
Drive is about like where an organism think of like a little, like, furry mammal in the woods. Their body gives them an uncomfortable internal signal, which is a cue that something is wrong. And that uncomfortable internal sensation pushes them out into the big bad world to go solve the problem, or else something bad will happen. And hunger is one of those. If you don't eat, you will die thirsty. Thermoregulation is a drive connection for humans and a lot of mammals is a drive. Die of loneliness. Human infants literally die just of loneliness.
Emily Nagoski:
Sex is an incentive motivation system where that means that instead of an uncomfortable internal experience that pushes you to go fix a problem, it is a pleasurable internal experience that pulls you out into the world to go explore. Oh, what's that? Oh, curious. Oh, I want to know more about that. And we all know that there are times in your life when you are less interested in novelty, when you're feeling less curious and exploratory, usually when you're pretty stressed out or exhausted, having stress, depression, anxiety, loneliness, repressed rage. We've all got it. We know that it's not a dysfunction. We know that that just means our lives are kind of out of whack and out of balance, and we need to get our lives back into whack back into balance. So for me, the parallel here is, are you having sex to prevent something bad from happening, or are you having sex in order to make something good happen?
Libby Sinback:
Wow.
Emily Nagoski:
And when I hear maintenance sex, or, like, there's a clock ticking and I know I can only say no so many times before something bad, before he. He's not going to be okay, you're having sex to avoid something bad happening, and that's not what sex is. What would you call that? I mean, that's. I mean, I think maintenance sex is a pretty evocative term that you're, like, maintaining it like a car. Like, if I don't do it, then something bad is going to happen. But I don't know if this is the story you hear a lot, but here's a story I hear a lot. When a couple decides, okay, we're just going to have sex at x frequency, because that's the frequency that feels like the frequency I need in order to have the right amount of sex in my life. And they just go ahead and have that sex.
Emily Nagoski:
That's sex at that frequency. And at least one of the people does not like the sex. The person who doesn't like it just has it reinforced over and over that their pleasure doesn't matter, that their body is there to be of service to the other partner rather than to, like, experience their own pleasure, joy and connection, and it destroys their relationship. They're trying to, like, sustain their relationship because they feel like having. Just having the sex is the thing that matters when it is the sharing of the pleasure that matters. Sexual frequency is correlated with sexual satisfaction only insofar as people have this idea that there is a frequency with which they are supposed to be having sex. And if they have sex at that frequency, they feel more satisfied because they feel like they're doing it. Right.
Emily Nagoski:
But again, if people are having sex at a frequency that seems like the right frequency, but one of them doesn't like it, let's imagine instead that they have sex at a frequency that feels like a pretty low frequency, but they both just love it every time they do. Which sex life do you want?
Libby Sinback:
Oh, easy. Right? Easy. Number two. Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
So I wish pleasure were easier than it is because there's a whole extra chapter on, like, pleasure and how to make pleasure happen, because pleasure is not as easy as we have been told that it is.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
But the pleasure is the part that matters. Not frequency, and not desire.
Libby Sinback:
Not frequency, not desire. And not meeting a drive and checking a box.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. Nothing bad is going to happen to somebody if they don't, like, get to have sexual outlets.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. So I guess in that vein, like, it's. So it seems like the most important thing. Like, the most important thing at the baseline is enjoying the sex you're having, being able to approach it centrally from pleasure. And I'm hearing that there's a lot that can just easily get in the way of that.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And you talk about the emotional floor plan as being one thing. We've talked about just heterosexual dynamics and the patriarchy as a big thing that gets in the way.
Emily Nagoski:
It's just getting the fuck in the way of people enjoying sex because they have all these narratives in their mind of how it's supposed to go. And those narratives are grounded entirely in this mythology of cis hetero patriarchy. And your body is for this, and your body is for that, and here's how you're supposed to behave, and here's what emotions you're allowed to express. And all of it is this, like, fiction, and we're measuring ourselves against this fiction, and we have been taught to believe that the fiction is the good thing, and whatever is happening with us is a bad thing. And so we need to change what's happening with us until we match this fiction. And instead, I wrote a hundred thousand word book of affective neuroscience and public health theory to say, what if? Where you are, who you are, what you truly are, is already excellent and worthy of pleasure and love and joy, instead of trying to be that lie that you were told you're supposed to be?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, we need that for the men folk. I think we need it for women, too, though. No, we do. We do. We do. And I want that. And that book is out there, and I love it, but I think there needs to be someone, and maybe it's not you, but to help unpack the other side of it, too. I'm just thinking, because it's a whole dance that sends things spiraling down.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. Yeah. So I made the book as inclusive as I possibly could, given that the research is not that inclusive. I made the book as inclusive as I possibly could. But there is one chapter where I assume that the reader is in a heterosexual type relationship, because the research has been really consistent for decades now that folks who are in heterosexual type relationships have fewer orgasms, they have less sexual pleasure, they have less variety of sexual experiences, they're less likely to say, I love you, they're less likely to cuddle, they're less likely to kiss during sex, and yet they have more of it. They have more sex. They like less.
Libby Sinback:
That just makes me feel so sad.
Emily Nagoski:
I am worried about the straits. I am worried.
Libby Sinback:
I am worried about the straits.
Emily Nagoski:
So they do get one chapter all of their own where I say specifically, look, the patriarchy specifically, is getting in the way. Here is how you got to work on it together, because the rules of the game are unfair in heterosexual relationships. The ways that men and women. Part of my research was like, looking at how men and women talk about their partners on the Internet, and they use the word hate. Hate. My editor's boss pointed me to the moms group for her geographic areas, like Facebook Moms group. And she is a single mom. But most of this page is used up with women explaining how much they hate using the word hate.
Emily Nagoski:
Their husbands hate.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. Terry real talks about normal marital hatred, right?
Emily Nagoski:
Normal marital hatred. And I think there's a difference between normal marital hatred and I hate my husband. Normal moral hatred is like my husband is picking his teeth while we watch tv and the sound and the noise just. Right. I hate my husband. Is not normal marital hatred.
Libby Sinback:
No, that's.
Emily Nagoski:
You need therapy. You need to fix the problem, because hating your life partner with whom you are raising children is not awesome for any of you, including the children. And I know this is a wild, wacky thing to say, apparently, but I really recommend only ever having sex with people you like.
Libby Sinback:
Right. Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
So the rules are different. So the ways that women hate men are because men are following their, like, masculinity rulebook. The ways that men hate women are because women are not following their femininity rulebook. Women are like, if only you would stop behaving according to these bogus rules. You were taught we could be okay. And men are like, if only you would conform to these rules. You were taught we could be okay, and nobody wins.
Libby Sinback:
No.
Emily Nagoski:
The solution is deciding that it is the rule books that are the problem. You're not the problem. Your partner's not the problem. Your relationship is not the problem. The problem is, like, you got force fed a bunch of bullshit really early on in your life, and it got reinforced over and over for years. And you brought all those lies into your relationship and those expectations you had for yourself and for your partner and for your relationship, and you have to decide that all those lies are the enemy. And together, you're going to build a wall to protect your connection to this other human being whom you care about and treasure as a dear, dear friend. You're not going to let that outside lying shit toxify your connection with each other.
Libby Sinback:
I love that. The relationship or relationship ecosystem against the cultural structure that has poisoned you.
Emily Nagoski:
Right. One of my favorite interviews that I did for the book was with a couple. They had opened their relationship, and, like, in heterosexual relationships in particular, the same story over and over was the woman saying, yeah, I had to lose my shit a lot of times, but he's really grown a lot. And for this one couple, it was, yeah, I had to lose my shit a lot. But his other women partners really did so much in teaching him about femmes and emotional labor. They've been great. He's grown so much. Like, it takes a village of women to help.
Emily Nagoski:
Deep patriarchy one dude.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, yeah. And that's also not fair. And I can understand why. Again, I mean, this has happened to me. In my experience, when you talk about the rage space, like, I would say that's probably whenever I think about sex, and then I kind of go into thinking about what the patriarchy has done to my sexuality specifically. There are times when I'll just go, I'll be enraged, and I'll be like, nope, this is not happening now. Nothing's happening right now. I am just enraged.
Libby Sinback:
And it's not at you. It's just at the shit that is in me that you put there. You know? Like, I love you. You didn't choose it, but I'm here.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And it is like. I mean, and that's the thing that is, you know, when I think about this situation, nobody would have chosen this for themselves in a loving relationship. I think that there are people that would have chosen it for, like, society, for stability, for control, you know, all of that. But, like, nobody would have chosen this for an intimate partnership, this sludge that we have to eradicate in ourselves. Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
If they understood it, they certainly would not. One of the changes I made to the book, based on beta reader feedback. Right. Was a therapist I talked to who said, I see so many women in heterosexual relationships who absolutely would trade their authentic selves for the certainty that their husband would never leave them. Because the message of the book is that you deserve to be 100% of your true, authentic self and also utterly welcome in your human community, that you should not have to compromise your identity and your pleasures and your desires in order to be accepted and held in connection. And there are a lot of people who have to compromise who they are and who have spent so long being taught that they have to, that it takes years of therapy to untangle the knots, to free them from the idea that it's okay that they have to.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
There was someone at one of the book events, it was in San Francisco, actually, who asked, like, but what if I don't want to try things? Like, this person was apparently in a community of people where everyone was feeling very exploratory in terms of the things they're trying out and they named in particular, like, what if I don't want to have an open relationship? Like, you're not obliged to have an open relationship.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Or what if you don't want to try kink? You don't have to try that either. Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. If you don't want to try anal sex, you don't have to try anything related to butt stuff. You don't want trifoot stuff. You're under no obligation. Sex educators navigate a thing I call the permission paradox, where I'm giving you permission. You don't have to have a monogamous relationship. You can open up your relationship. You get to follow whatever rules work for you and the people that you are in connection with.
Emily Nagoski:
And it's really hard for me to say that and not have some people here. You should be in an open relationship.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
When it's really just like, you get to choose what. Whatever works for you and your people, as long as everybody's glad to be there and free to leave with no unwanted consequences, you're good.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
And you don't have to do anything. Like, again, my vision for the world is that we all only ever have sex we like.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
And that we don't feel bad for not having the sex we don't like.
Libby Sinback:
I think that second one is the bigger one. I think not feeling bad about not having the sex that you don't like is probably the big one. And I think it does come from that external idea of how often you should be having it or you should be having it. If you're in this type of partnership.
Emily Nagoski:
The obligation, I owe it to my partner.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. They need it. I'm their only sexual partner. Because that can happen in non monogamous dynamics. Like, you can have multiple partners, but maybe one of your partners only has one, and it's you, and you might just not feel it that night that you're spending with them. And then there's this. I mean, there. It can show up in those kinds of situations, and it definitely did for me.
Libby Sinback:
So I want to. We've talked about so much, and I feel like there's actually a really nice roadmap here for people who are either in that situation we were talking about earlier, where they're in this more like they're really unhappy with the sex that's happening and. And they need to fix it. And then there. I think you also have a beautiful roadmap in the book for, like, how, if you really like the sex that you're having, how to.
Emily Nagoski:
But, like, your actual life is getting in the way of your access to pleasure. Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
Yep.
Libby Sinback:
But, like, if you were. If you were to just, like, if there was someone listening to this podcast, and they were like, okay, I'm ready to shift something here. And what I notice is that when I think about, um, like, sex with certain partners, I start to feel some pressure, I start to feel some stress, I start to feel some worry, and I just. I want to shift that, and I want to change that. Like, what would be the first thing that you would have them do, like to. Or you would. That you would suggest them do to take that first step to. To shift something if they want it to change?
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. So you think about sex with a particular partner, and you experience worry. So I want to know what you're worried about, and I want to reality check that against what could actually happen? This is sort of basic cognitive behavioral. Maybe you're catastrophizing. Maybe you're like, if I don't have sex with my partner, they'll break up with me.
Libby Sinback:
I think that's probably the worry.
Emily Nagoski:
They will break up with me and I will die alone, eaten by my dogs.
Libby Sinback:
Right. Like, well, or they just might not prioritize time with me, or they might lose interest or whatever.
Emily Nagoski:
That if I don't say yes to sex, then they will start gatekeeping. Other things that I would like from them in the relationship. Yeah. Which is like what you're saying. Like, they're going to.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, but in a different way. That's a totally different way of framing it.
Emily Nagoski:
It's when sex is a power struggle, you're already in the wrong place.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
When it feels like gatekeeping, you're already in the, like, I'm going to withhold.
Libby Sinback:
This from you because you're withholding this from me kind of thing.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Oof. Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. So I want to know what you're worried about.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
I want to know what you want when you want sex. I want to know, especially if you're worried about it, what is it that you don't want when you don't want sex? A lot of people talk about a sense of obligation as being a thing they don't want. The number one thing people talk about as what they do want when they want sex is connection. They also want that shared pleasure they want to feel and be wanted. Of course we do, because we spend so much time being told that sex is dirty, dangerous, and disgusting, and these parts of ourselves are totally unacceptable. So of course we want someone to be like, it's not merely acceptable, but actually desirable to me that you have these things that are true about you. And people really want to disappear into the pleasure of the moment and not have to worry about their life and identity and roles and responsibilities and all that other stuff. Those are some of the main things people want when they want sex.
Emily Nagoski:
Really? What they don't want when they don't want sex is pain, a sense of obligation. They don't want to feel like their pleasure doesn't matter. So I want to know those things. I want you to have those conversations with your partner about what they want when they want sex, what they don't want when they don't want sex. I want to know what you believe a good sex life is supposed to be like. Because you're wrong. Because there is no.
Libby Sinback:
There's no supposed to.
Emily Nagoski:
There is no what a good sex life is supposed to be. But if you've got a script in your head of what it's supposed to be like, and you are judging yourself against that script and deciding that the script is right and you are wrong, that automatically is like, that is inherently causing dysfunction that's making your sex life worse as opposed to turning toward what's happening. What's true about you right now? Knowing what's true, loving what is true about you, even if it's not what you wish were true, even if it's not what you were taught is supposed to be true. Loving what's true right now about you and taking that with confidence to your partner and saying, here's what's true. Tell me what's true about you, and let's turn toward what's true about the two of us with kindness and compassion. And nothing is wrong with me, even if what's true about me is not what either of us wishes were true, or what's true about you is not what either of us wishes were true, let's love it with kindness and compassion. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with me.
Emily Nagoski:
There's nothing wrong with us. We're in a situation where there's a tangled knot, there is a. There's a mess that needs to be addressed. Together as partners, we are on a team, we're on the same side, and we're going to fix this thing that's happening together. That is not you and it's not me, and it's not even us. It's just this external thing that we're going to work on together.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
My stress is not the problem. The problem is that my life is this stressful, and I don't have adequate time or emotional resources to get into a better state of mind to be able to have access to pleasure. That was my story.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good place to leave it. And I love, but I love that as, like, a starting path to, like, a lot of questions. And then let's not make each other the problem. Let's get together and be on the other side and be together on the other side of the problem and look at it together and tackle it together.
Emily Nagoski:
Yet another reason that it really helps to like the person that you're having sex with, because it's much easier to collaborate with someone that you like rather than someone who you're like. Why would I even want to talk to this person about this if you don't want to talk to the person about it. Why do you want to have sex with the person?
Libby Sinback:
Good question. It's a good question. A question to sit with. Emily, thank you so much for being here with me. I really, really, I just appreciate your mind. I appreciate all the things that you shared. I hope that all my listeners minds are blown. Mine is.
Libby Sinback:
So thank you so much. If people want to find you more of your work, how can they find you and everything that you're about?
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah, the books are available wherever books are sold. Special shout out to the audiobook of come together. I did put extra because there is some dark stuff in there. I put some effort into making it a little lighter and a little sillier so that it's a little easier to deal with. So, audiobook, highly recommend. And then also, if you just go to emilynagosky.com, comma, I write the confidence and Joy newsletter, which is mostly me answering other people's sex questions.
Libby Sinback:
Yep. I am a subscriber of that. I can highly recommend it. So come as you are. That's the first book. Um, I give that out like a bible to people like I do. I actually even put, uh, copies of it in the little free library all around my neighborhood.
Emily Nagoski:
Oh, wow.
Libby Sinback:
I was like, you need. People need this. And I there, and there are people who might not buy it, but they might just be curious about it.
Emily Nagoski:
Well, my first thought was like, oh, I hope teenagers are taking it.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, and then, uh, the second book that just came out in January is come together. And you've also written other stuff as well. But those are the two about.
Emily Nagoski:
Those are the two sex books. Yep.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, thanks so much, Emily.
Emily Nagoski:
Thank you.
Libby Sinback:
Have a great day.
Emily Nagoski:
This was so much fun. Thank you.
