Forget the Spark with Emily Nagoski Part 1
The amazing Emily Nagoski joins Libby on Making Polyamory Work to drop truth bomb after truth bomb about sex in long-term relationships.
Emily Nagoski's website: https://www.emilynagoski.com/ Emily Nagoski on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/enagoski/
Emily Nagoski's books (highly recommended!): https://bookshop.org/contributors/emily-nagoski-4318b5e2-0f22-4415-963b-ce5a1f467607
Transcript
Emily Nagoski:
I tried following the advice that I give income as you are, which is to make the most of responsive desire. You put your body in the bed, you let your skin touch your partner's skin, and most of the time, your body's gonna go, oh, right, this is a great idea. I really like this. I really like this person. And I would put my body in the bed, let my skin touch my partner's skin, and I would just cry and fall asleep. And I was like, well, I need more advice than I give in my own book.
Libby Sinback:
Welcome to making polyamory work. Hi, I'm Libby Sinbak, and I want to thank you for being with me today. I'm a queer, polyamorous mom and integrative relationship guide, and I help people who live in love outside the status quo have extraordinary relationships because relationships are at the core, core of our well being as humans. I believe love is why we're here and how we heal. So today, I'm super excited to have the amazing force of nature, Emily Ngoski, on my show. If you don't know who Emily Ngoski is, she is the award winning author of the New York Times bestselling book Come as you are and the come as you are workbook. She's also the co author, with her sister Amelia, of the New York Times bestseller Burnout, the Secret to unlocking the stress cycle. Her latest book is Come Together, the science and art of creating lasting sexual connections.
Libby Sinback:
Emily has a master's in counseling and a PhD in health behavior, both from Indiana University with clinical and research training at the Kinsey Institute. And now she combines sex education and stress education to teach women to live with confidence and joy inside their bodies. I wish reading that bio could possibly encompass the brilliance that is inside Emily Ngoski, but you'll just have to listen to our conversation and listen to her share everything that she knows in our interview together. And this is a two parter. So this is part one of our interview together. And we're talking about all kinds of stuff, but mostly we're talking about sex. We're talking about how to maintain a sexual relationship over other long term relationship. But it's really just so much more than that.
Libby Sinback:
And so I'm just delighted to share this conversation with you. So without further ado, let's just dive in. Part one of two parts with Emily Nagoski.
Libby Sinback:
Welcome, Emily, to making polyamory work.
Emily Nagoski:
Hello. I'm excited to talk to you.
Libby Sinback:
Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to talk to you, too. I actually saw you when you came on your book tour to Atlanta. You were at the Agnes Scott college.
Libby Sinback:
And I got to sit right in.
Libby Sinback:
The front row, and I was just like, will she be on my podcast.
Emily Nagoski:
If you were in the front row, you were sitting right by Shemeeka Thorpe, who is one of my favorite sex researchers currently alive.
Libby Sinback:
No way.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Well, it was awesome, too.
Libby Sinback:
Earlier on this season, I had Aubree Lancaster on the podcast, and I got her name from your book talking. So.
Emily Nagoski:
Yes. Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Thank you for that.
Emily Nagoski:
She's great.
Libby Sinback:
She's amazing. I love her. But let's talk about you, okay.
Libby Sinback:
Because that's what we're here for.
Libby Sinback:
We'll talk about you, and we're going to talk about sex, obviously. But before we just dive into our topic, I'm curious, like, you wrote a book that came out at the beginning of this year. It was amazing. It is amazing. And I guess I just would love for you to tell us some story about how you landed into writing this book.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. Yeah. Cause how I got to writing this book is a result of what happened to my sex life while I was writing my first book. Right. So I was writing come as you are a couple of years after I got married. No, like a year and a half after I got married. Wow. And you might think that, like, thinking and talking and reading and writing about sex all the time is gonna be real sexy.
Emily Nagoski:
It's not. It was so stressful that I lost all interest in actually having any sex with my newlywed spouse. I finished the book. It got better. Then I went on book tour, and it got way worse. I tried following the advice that I give income as you are, which is to make the most of responsive desire. You put your body in the bed, you let your skin touch your partner's skin, and most of the time, your body's gonna go, oh, right. This is a great idea.
Emily Nagoski:
I really like this. I really like this person. And I would put my body in the bed, let my skin touch my partner's skin, and I would just cry and fall asleep. And I was like, well, I need more advice than I give in my own book. So I did what any good sex nerd does. I went to Google scholar, and I looked up how couples sustain a strong sexual connection over the long term. And what I found there made irrelevant the entire sort of cultural discourse around sex and long term relationships, and in particular, the relationship between sex and long term relationships and whether a relationship is open or not.
Libby Sinback:
Oh.
Emily Nagoski:
Cause the deal is you can have great sex or terrible sex regardless of your relationship. Structure.
Libby Sinback:
Say that again. Say more about that. I want to.
Emily Nagoski:
So I will point in particular to a very important body of research led by Peggy Kleinplatz. The optimal sexual experiences research. Peggy and her team interviewed dozens of people who self identified as having extraordinary sex lives. And these are folks of a wide variety of ages, every living generation of adults, people of every sexual orientation, every relationship structure, every gender identity. Well, not every gender identity, but a wide variety of gender identities. Kinky and vanilla, just as diverse as it can get. And the deal is that couples who sustain strong sexual connections, the mainstream conversation is, well, you need distance in order to keep the spark alive. Intimacy is the enemy of the erotic, or you need closeness to keep the spark alive.
Emily Nagoski:
Intimacy is the key to the erotic. And the deal is these people who have extraordinary sex lives, who self identify as having optimal sex, don't talk about the spark. They don't talk about desire. They don't talk about how horny they are. They don't talk about wanting sex. They don't talk about spontaneous desire. They talk about pleasure. They talk about liking the sex that they have.
Emily Nagoski:
They talk about liking their partner. They talk about authenticity and vulnerability. They talk about empathy. Empathy. Empathy. They don't talk about desire. So the idea of opening up your relationship because you're not experiencing the spontaneous desire that characterized your early relationship, and you can't find a way to reignite spontaneous desire. And the only way you can experience spontaneous desires with a new partner, that's beside the point.
Emily Nagoski:
Do you like the sex you're having with this person? Then you're doing it, right. And if you don't like the sex you're having with this person, then of course you don't want it. It's not dysfunctional not to want sex you don't like.
Libby Sinback:
Wow. So I just want to play that back because I want to make sure I'm getting it. Yeah, you're saying that there are, and there is a story out there, I think, for sure that some people have of this idea of the spark. Right. And I mean, Esther Perel, you didn't name her, but, like, she's pretty famous for saying, you know, that in desire.
Emily Nagoski:
You need a bridge to cross.
Libby Sinback:
Yes, you need a bridge to cross.
Emily Nagoski:
Exactly.
Libby Sinback:
Your beloved. And I love Esther Perel. She's amazing. And so I'm not saying anything, like, negative or critical about her, but she doesn't have that story. And it sounds like lots of people want desire. Sure.
Emily Nagoski:
For them, it is like the ultimate measure of whether or not their sex life is going well, right, right.
Libby Sinback:
And it's what we're. We see in films, it's what we hear about in a lot of places in popular culture is that idea of spark. It's that idea of, you know, just spontaneous, er. I just want to jump on you kind of thing. And so it makes sense that we would have that belief that if that's gone, that we need to go find it again.
Emily Nagoski:
That there's something wrong. Yeah, yeah.
Libby Sinback:
That we need to either go find it again with someone else and that might lead someone to open their relationship. And also people talk about. This is a common thing that people talk about in non monogamy, is going and finding that spark with someone else and then that, you know, kind of getting the juices flowing and then that bringing the spark back to the other partnership that might be more established. And what I'm hearing from you is that, like, stop chasing spark. The people who have extraordinary sexual compatibility and relationships, they're not chasing spark. And so maybe think something different here.
Emily Nagoski:
So what I get from the research is that if we're chasing spark, we're doing something really different from the people who self identify as having, like, life changing, excellent, extraordinary sex, including in a long term relationship. So if the quote unquote problem we're trying to solve is a lack of spontaneous desire, trying to solve the wrong problem.
Libby Sinback:
Okay. Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
So that's a question that I actually have for you, which is, what do you. I mean, you're kind of hinting at what you think the problem is, which is maybe that people aren't liking the sex that they're having sometimes.
Emily Nagoski:
Yes.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
But not me. So, like. Yeah, so there's like a couple of different things. Right, right.
Libby Sinback:
So. So what is your story about, like, why people in the first place, in a long term relationship, having a hard time maintaining their connection so that they need to read books about it.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah, there's. I mean, there's so many different kinds of stories that people have, but let's take two or three examples, sort of the standard narrative of couples who seek sex therapy. So differences in desire is the number one reason why a couple of any structure of any gender combination of any openness or monogamy seek sex therapy is a difference in sexual desire. So they go to the therapist and let's say partner a says, you know, I was really into the sex and it was great, but, you know, these days, frankly, I'd be happy if we never had sex again. And I'm sorry, that hurts my partner's feelings, but that's just how I feel. I'm going to give this entirely hypothetical couple, the therapist, Peggy Kleinplatz, who leads that optimal sexual experiences research, and she will say, oh, that's interesting. So tell me about this sex you do not want. And are they going to go on to describe sex that feels really connected and pleasurable and joyful and playful and connect? Or are they going to describe sex that is done out of a sense of obligation, where they have to pretend to like things they don't really like, where they have to hide parts of themselves, where it is by rote, the same sex they've been having that they never liked in the first place.
Emily Nagoski:
Sex that is, in Peggy's words, dismal and disappointing.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
Of course, it's the second kind of sex. And Peggy, being Peggy, will say, well, you know, I rather like sex, but if that's the sex I were having, I wouldn't want it either. So tell me, what kind of sex is worth wanting? And that's where the work begins, where they start working out what kind of sex they actually enjoy together, which is going to require confronting a whole bunch of stuff and maybe exploring aspects of their own internal lives that they have not yet been ready to explore. And then there's a couple like me where I would show up in a therapist's office and be like, I know that, like, if I could just get there, it would be great. I know that the sex that we have is so much fun. I would be so, like, afterward, I'd be like, that was great. I'm so glad we did that. And I just, like, I can't get there.
Emily Nagoski:
How do I get there? And that was what I needed. The emotional floor plan for it, for me, was it takes me two whole chapters to write about in the book. I tried to teach it in a workshop. It took me more than an hour and a half to talk about in a workshop full of therapists. So, like, I'm not going to be able to explain the whole thing here, but the short version is when I would get into the bed with my certain special someone and let my skin touch my partner's skin, instead of my body going, oh, this is, like, sexy and fun, my brain would go, oh, I'm safe now. Because I was in an emotional space of fear. I was so stressed, so anxious, so worried all the time that when my body connected with my partners, it would not interpret it as sexual touch. It would interpret it as straight up safety.
Emily Nagoski:
I have now found my way to a safe place when I have been so stressed and so threatened by my own internal experience that I can complete this stress response cycle. And that's what the crying was. My body being like, oh, I can let this go. I can be safe. So, in a way, it's sort of a beautiful thing. And also, it was a super not sexy thing.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
Okay, so I get out of the fear space, and where am I now? Do I go directly out of the fear space into the lust space in my brain?
Libby Sinback:
No. No.
Emily Nagoski:
I was exhausted, and so I needed a nap and generally a snack and, like, a bath. And then my body was in good enough shape that I could then move myself into one of the emotional spaces that I now know is adjacent to the lust space. In particular, the play space for me, where. So play is innate mammalian motivational system of friendship. It plays any behavior that individuals participate in for its own sake because they like it. And there is nothing at stake. Right. There's lots of different kinds of play.
Emily Nagoski:
There's rough and tumble play.
Libby Sinback:
So no obligation in there.
Emily Nagoski:
100% no obligation because you're just doing.
Libby Sinback:
It because you like it and no, like agenda.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. Nobody has anything to lose. No one's identity is on the line. No one's. The relationship is not on the line. Whether or not you are acceptable in the relationship is not on the line. There's no destination. You're just like, let's play this fun game together, because we both really enjoy this fun game.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. So that's the play state. So there are seven total rooms. Yeah, rooms. And that's a huge house. That's already, like, a really big house. And it means that sometimes you're going to be in a space that is not right next to the lust space. Like, when I was in the fear space.
Emily Nagoski:
And that means if you can map out how to get from where you are to where you want to be, which, the first step is being able to identify which space you are in.
Libby Sinback:
Right?
Emily Nagoski:
Like, recognizing, oh, I'm just, like, super freaking stressed. I'm in the fear space. I am constantly. And that sort of, like, straight. The one sentence, motivation of the fear space is I need to get away. I need to escape. The one sentence, motivation of the rage space is I need to destroy this thing that's in my way. Here's a threat.
Emily Nagoski:
I need to destroy it. And that's everything from mild irritation through frustration and annoyance all the way up to anger and full blown rage, whereas fear is everything from slight worry and niggles anxiety. Anxiety through fear, up to full blown terror.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
These are the pleasure adverse spaces. The third of the three pleasure adverse spaces is the one that is least recognizable to people because we don't talk about it. It's panic, grief, and it's where shame lives. So this is related to attachments, the way human beings are, like, wired to love each other intensely because our babies are born unable to meet any of their own needs. And so if we didn't, like, just, like, desperately love our infants, like, hearing them cry, seeing their faces activates a thing in our bodies. It doesn't even necessarily feel good. It just feels very intense that, like, here, this one's yours. Keep it alive.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
And you will do anything to keep your one alive. And the baby feels kind of the same way.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
They know that if their adult caregiver does not help them meet their needs, and that's a baby crying. Panic, panic. I have a need. I can't meet it because I was born only 85% cooked. So, like, somebody has to come and help me meet this. Whatever. Can't even thermoregulate independently. Like, it's nuts.
Emily Nagoski:
And most of the time, an adult caregiver comes and helps meet the need. But if a baby goes long enough without having a need met, it transitions from, I need to get this need met to, oh, no, I'm never going to get this need met. And their brain gets pushed off a neurological cliff into a pit of despair where it thinks, I'm alone forever. I'm going to die in isolation. It's no longer true when we're adults that our lives literally depend on our attachment object coming when we need them. But our bodies don't know that.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, our bodies still do the same thing.
Emily Nagoski:
It's called heartbreak for a reason. Your body is like, I'm gonna die if this person doesn't come back. Why do we have sex with our, like, while we're breaking up with someone? Because our body's like, you're gonna die if you. If you lose contact with this person.
Libby Sinback:
Well, but so that makes me really curious, because you said that that is one of those places that panic. Grief is usually far from the sex room or the lustroom.
Emily Nagoski:
Usually it's a pleasure adverse space. It can a motivation for having sex, and it can be really intense, and sometimes it's pleasurable, but it's fucking desperate.
Libby Sinback:
Okay.
Emily Nagoski:
Just because it's high intensity doesn't mean it's high pleasure. So intensity and valence are the two dimensions of an emotion. Intensity is just like, just how much chemical is there being released in your brain? Valence is direction does it feel good or does it feel not good? How good does it feel is intensity. So with breakup sex, you have often really high intensity. And we live in a world that mistakes intensity for pleasure. Like, because it felt a lot.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, wait, wait, wait. Say that again. Say that again.
Emily Nagoski:
In a world that mistakes intensity for pleasure, just because it feels a lot doesn't mean it necessarily feels good.
Libby Sinback:
Feels good?
Libby Sinback:
Yes, yes.
Emily Nagoski:
Sorry.
Libby Sinback:
I just want to let that land because when I'm hearing you talk about being in the panic grief space on the emotional floor plan and then moving towards lust and sex to feel better.
Emily Nagoski:
Yes.
Libby Sinback:
That doesn't necessarily mean that it's about pleasure.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. It's just about repairing the connection.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. There's a yoga instructor, the founder of underbelly yoga, Jessamine Stanley, who I quote in the book, she says that jealousy is my kink. And I think this is the neurobiology that underlies people who are like, when my attachment in my primary relationship feels just a little bit, when you're still safe enough in the relationship, when you trust this person, but there's just a little bit of like, oh, that can actually be really motivating.
Libby Sinback:
Well, but, okay, but here's a, here's. I feel like you will have something to say on this. What if you are the person who's in that seeking mode? I'm seeking out sexual connection to make myself self soothe. Basically. I want to feel better.
Emily Nagoski:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And you're the partner of that person, and that's the type of sex they're wanting from you.
Emily Nagoski:
Which type of sex?
Libby Sinback:
The type of sex to reassure, to calm, to make someone feel better. I'm just thinking about that. And I'm thinking about in specifically, in heterosexual dynamics, specifically a male bodied person. A male. A man. Someone raises a man, usually cisgender, heterosexual.
Emily Nagoski:
Oh, yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Seeking a woman to have sex with him, to just make him feel better, to make him feel more secure in.
Emily Nagoski:
Their relationship because he has been taught all his life, first of all, that he is not so like, in the same way that with fear, the biological underpinning is I need to escape and enrage. The biological underpinning is I need to destroy the biological underpinning of panic. Grief is I need help. I need connection. Right. And we raise this half of the people on earth with this lie that they don't. They don't have a panic grief space. You don't need connection.
Emily Nagoski:
You're certainly not supposed to give care. You don't even need to receive care. What you get is horny.
Libby Sinback:
Right?
Emily Nagoski:
You're not lonely. You're horny. Right? And so they're interpreting every longing. And let me say, connection is a biological drive. It's like sleep, it's like hunger, it's like thirst. Connection, your body will degrade with inadequate connection. It is the health equivalent to smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day. Loneliness is a disease process.
Emily Nagoski:
Sex is not one of those. If you don't have sex, nothing bad actually happens to your body. There's 70 years of research establishing this. This is not, like, the least controversial thing that I say, even though people have a lot of feelings about it.
Libby Sinback:
But people mix those two up. Right? That's the problem.
Emily Nagoski:
The thing you're feeling, and I know people don't like this word, but the thing you're feeling is loneliness. Like, you want connection. And you've been raised your whole life to believe that the only way you're allowed to give and receive connection is through sex. Right?
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
And your partner, if you're in a heterosexual relationship, that person was not raised with that message.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
If you get raised as a girl, you were probably. You may have been taught that you don't have a rage space.
Libby Sinback:
You might have even taught you, we don't have a lust space.
Emily Nagoski:
You may have been taught that you don't have a lust base, but you're probably taught that you're allowed to have, like, a. Like a longing to give and receive connection. Right. And sex absolutely is one of the ways that human beings give and receive connection in peer relationships. It absolutely is. It is only one of them. There are lots of other ones. The difficulty only comes in when, like, partner a is, like, I.
Emily Nagoski:
Sex is, like, the thing where I feel connected. And so, like, if you deny me sex, it feels to my body like you are denying me basic love and acceptance and a feeling that I am welcome on earth.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Emily Nagoski:
And often, if a person is saying no to sex, they're just like, I am too tired for sex today. No, thank you, please. But it feels to the other person like they're saying, no. You're not really worth the air you breathe in the space you take. And people need to have that conversation. Like, one of the questions I ask people to think for themselves and discuss with their partners is, what is it that you want when you want sex? What is it that you don't want when you don't want sex? Because often when people ask for sex, they're asking for something. And when someone says yes or no to sex, they are saying yes or no to something. Totally unrelated to that.
Libby Sinback:
So we're going to end it there. You will have to wait until next week to hear part two of this conversation where we talk about maintenance sex. We talk about the patriarchy. It's juicy stuff, y'all, and I'm really excited to share it with you for now. Thank you for joining me today. If you have any thoughts about the conversation or a question for the show, I'd love to hear from you. You can find me on Instagram as that pollyannmom. Or you can reach me on my website, libbysinbeck.com.
Libby Sinback:
or if you have a question to submit to the podcast, you can submit that@makingpolyamorywork.com I'll also say that if you're loving my podcasts but you're looking for more support, I do this for a living. I help individuals, couples, and groups have amazing relationships, and you can find out more about my offerings on my website. Thank you to everyone who has shared my podcast with your friends, your networks, your Facebook groups, etcetera. And thank you also for subscribing and writing reviews, because those reviews that show up on iTunes and now you can even rate and review on Spotify as well, those are a big help for helping people find the show. Making polyamory work is created by me, Libby Sinbach. It is edited by Finn of the normalizing non monogamy podcast and hosted on the Spotify podcasts platform. Vandeleone manages the website and posts the transcripts.
