What if My Partner's Other Relationship is Abusive?
Libby invites Shannon Perez-Darby to answer a listener question about what to do when you're in a relationship with someone who is in what appears to be an abusive relationship.
Transcript
Shannon:
One of the strengths of polyamorous relationships are that they can shine a light and to bring more eyes and more resource into romantic and sexual relationships, places that in a kind of Western culture, like we're not gonna dynamic are often thought of to be like private secret places.
Libby:
Yeah. That's so true.
Shannon:
Only the two people who are in relationship with each other should know what
Libby:
Happens behind closed doors, you know, and it's none of our business to know what's going on there. Whereas here it is our business. It's our business because we are in the same business with each other.
Libby:
Another thing is, if you are feeling concerned that you or someone you know, is experiencing domestic violence, I really encourage you to reach out to the domestic violence hotline. This is a wonderful resource that we will touch on again in the episode, but don't be afraid to reach out. And that information is available in the show notes for you to reach out, they have both a phone number that you can call and also a text messaging service. In case talking on the phone, doesn't feel either accessible or safe for you without further ado, let's get into the episode.
Libby:
So on today's episode of making polyamory work, I got a listener question that I wanted to respond to before we go any further, I wanna give a content warning that this listener question does address abusive dynamics within relationships. So one of the things I wanted to do as I address this listener question was to bring in someone who has a lot of expertise and experience in domestic violence advocacy, and who has also got a lot of experience in how domestic violence plays out in polyamorous relationships. So I am bringing in the lovely Shannon Perez Darby. And before I read this listener question, I wonder if Shannon, if you'd be willing to introduce yourself.
Shannon:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. My name is Shannon and my background and experiences that I have worked for over a decade as a advocate, working with survivors of domestic and sexual violence. Primarily my background is working within and trans communities within poly communities, learning people who are experiencing violence and abuse, and really also thinking about what is the world that we need to support everyone to have loving, equitable relationships and communities. And so that's what all my work is really grounded. And I'm excited to be in this conversation with you today.
Libby:
Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. And I love that added piece that you said about, you know, this isn't just about looking at what one situation or one action or one behavior it's what is the world we wanna create and what kind of relationships do we wanna have in that world. And I think that when we're thinking about this listener question, which I'll get to in a second, that's a big piece of what we're talking about here, because this is not just about one person's dynamic, but about how it impacts the other people around it. I'll go ahead and go to the question. The question is from this or who has asked to remain anonymous. So the question is, how do you deal with a partner who's experiencing abuse in their primary relationship? My partner is the hinge between me and their primary and what I hear and see is a lot of abusive behavior between the two of them.
Libby:
For example, my partner's, their primary is not, I hear a lot of erase Senti from the primary, like questioning the hinges sexuality or wondering if people can actually be BI or pansexual, if they are actually in a heterosexual relationship. When the two of them fight, I hear screaming, I hear crying, chasing, throwing things, vulgarism name calling. And even if I don't see it, I can always tell when my partner has experienced an upset they've express to me that they feel isolated, they feel trapped and they're afraid to leave. I've told them that I can't have interactions with their partner, my metamor. And so I don't wanna do any kind of integration. I need to be in parallel poly, which is basically the antithesis of kitchen table poly. But this person who wrote to me said, you know, that's really hard for me because I'm kitchen table kind of partner.
Libby:
And so that's my preferences for us to all know each other and all get along. However, because I've had this boundary, I feel guilty because that means that I'm taking myself outta the situation and I'm not stepping in and telling my partner that this isn't right. I know that we can't all like our metas. And sometimes you just have to let your partners play out their situ with each other. But I also know that I own my own time in agency and I get to decide what works for me. But when do I step in? Because if this person were just a friend of mine, I think I'd be storming their house and helping them pack and finding them a place to live. So what's the protocol for something like my situation. And then the person went on to say that they tried to find some resources on polyamory and abuse, but it doesn't seem to cover for them. What happens when your partner is experiencing abuse in their other relationship?
Shannon:
Well, Thank you so much for this question. And also thank you so much to the person who wrote in, I find it really helpful to start by really understanding what domestic violence is because people have a lot of different definitions and a lot of different ways they think about domestic violence. And so for me, the definition that I find to be most helpful is understanding domestic violence as a pattern of power and control where one person's world is smaller and another person is acting in a way that is decreasing in other's choices over time. And so often we think about domestic violence and as sort of the moment violent physical violence happens, the moment one person hits another. And while that can absolutely be a part of an abusive dynamic and part of domestic violence, the real core harm of domestic violence is that decreased choice is that objectification that happens for people who are experiencing domestic violence, where their world gets smaller, their choices get smaller. And if physical violence is present in an abusive relationship, that is a tool of that manipulation and isolation and control the real harm of domestic violence is that objectification and takes away from the task of being a person who can act powerfully and make choices on your own behalf, doing sort of the human task, which is like making choices every day to align with the value of who you are and who you wanna be. And domestic violence limits those choices,
Libby:
Right? It takes away your agency.
Shannon:
Exactly. And that is the core harm of domestic violence. And so one of the things that I really like about that definition is that it really helps us understand domestic violence, both the role that physical violence plays, but also as a much bigger understanding of dynamics of power and control. And we know that there can be abuse present, where there is not physical violence. It can really, I think help people understand kind of really what's going on and zoom out a little bit.
Libby:
I love that definition so much because it really also, I think broadens the definition of what an abusive dynamic can be. And also doesn't limit it to these specific like red line, how harmful behaviors, which I think can show up. I mean, obviously not physical violence, but I could see like somebody, you know, getting in a fight and screaming and that not necessarily meaning that there's an abusive dynamic just might mean that person's having a bad day and lost their. It's a way of saying this is not, that is by saying, is this a way of narrowing down this person's choices? Or is this someone just being uncontained and being uncontained is also something you need to work on, obviously, but it's just such a different ballgame. So I thank you so much for that, for that definition.
Shannon:
I just wanna say you really nailed that particular piece, which is that there is no one behavior that can tell us if a relationship is abusive. It really is about the pattern set up over time. And something can be a bad idea, unhealthy wacky, not in line with our values in an individual moment of behavior. And it doesn't make it abusive. It might be something you wanna work on and make a different plan about. And that the difference between sort of an unhealthy dynamic and an abusive dynamic is a series of behavior and patterns that are set up over time. And that is an important distinction, cuz it also tells us what should we should do in response to it.
Libby:
Absolutely.
Shannon:
And individual behavior needs a different kinds of support and intervention as does an abusive dynamic. That is a pattern of behavior that's set up over time.
Libby:
Absolutely. And I think also like, I don't wanna say that like any kind of bad behavior that happens doesn't mean that you might not need to relieve the relationship. I think sometimes, and this is, this is something I kind of beat the drum around. Is that just because a relationship isn't abusive doesn't mean you have to stay in it. You know, you can say this is a harmful dynamic. This doesn't work for me. I don't like it when people you know, your uncontained behavior, isn't, you know, working for me. But I suppose that's part of what would make it a sign that it's not abusive is if you feel like you can very easily leave something that's harmful to you, or you can very easily set boundaries or stick up for yourself. But if that's not present in this dynamic, that may be another symbol, I guess there's something deeper and bigger going on there than just bad behavior.
Shannon:
Yeah. And when I worked as a domestic violence advocate, this was a question that people had a lot of course particularly when they were calling in and receiving support. And one of the things I would often say was if I said your relationship was abusive, what would that mean? What difference would that make? What actually would that change? And sometimes people when they're trying to grapple with, is this abusive for not one of the things that can happen is people are trying to give themselves permission to no longer be in the relationship, right? And a relationship doesn't have to be abusive to not be working for you. Or for you not gonna be in it. I think it matters less sometimes than words we use and much more about what is the impact on you, what is gonna be best in service of you and your vision for your life. And that, that is often like focusing on that is often what's most helpful for people.
Libby:
Well, right. If I was gonna extrapolate from what you said about what it is like to be in an abusive dynamic, a person who is in that situation might have a really, really hard time even discerning what that is, if they have felt so disempowered. And so I kind of, I think that's maybe where I wanna start in terms of addressing specifically the listener question, because one thing that came up for me, I'm guessing it probably came up for you too, was when the listener said, you know, if this was my friend, I would storm their house, help them pack and give them a place to live. And my thought there was, I mean, I think if the person's unsafe, there's nothing wrong with getting them out of that situation. But my other thought is that if you just go and yank someone out of a situation without seeing what they wanna do, then it seems like that's not helping them be empowered.
Libby:
And you're not really getting a sense of like what they really want. And what's really, and, and like what's important to them and giving them a chance to sort of orient themselves in, in, into, you know, their own agency, right? You're not solving the problem, the central problem of abuse, which is a lack of agency. In fact, you could be contributing to it. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about, instead of that, instead of just saying, you know, you're unsafe, I'm telling you what to do, I'm getting you out, which is sort of like this, I'm gonna put on a Cape and be a superhero kind of thing. What would be the better thing to do in that situation? I mean, this listener clearly thinks that that's not something they can do anyway with this, with their partner. But I was wondering what you think they should do instead or where they should start.
Shannon:
As you said, if the core harm of domestic violence is object case, then the kind of remedy for that is self-determination. And so the path forward is we often think about the path forward as safety as the first thing we should prioritize for people who are in abusive relationships. And while safety is really important, it's not the whole picture, really centering the choices of the person who's experiencing. The abuse dynamic is the path forward because you know, you can lock somebody in a room, make sure they have food and water and their, you know, their sort of physical needs are met, but that does not make a life. And so we know it's this combination of self-determination and safety, that is the path forward. And for people who are trying to support a loved one and abusive dynamic, a lot of the things that can come up are this tension between your own boundary, setting, your own sense about what's right for you, your own tolerance for sort of witnessing and, and participating in a right abusive dynamic, and your love for that other person and your care for wanting someone you love to be well and safe and have what they need.
Shannon:
And so, you know what, I, I often I, I work on this for myself and for others, which is to really start by resourcing yourself, start by getting grounded, getting clear, figuring out what you need, what your capacity is, cuz you can only give as much as you have.
Libby:
Yeah, that's so true.
Shannon:
And so that is usually the first step in thinking about and then asking open ended questions. So instead of deciding, I think this is gonna be best for you and I'm gonna swoop in and do that actually saying, I feel worried. You are a person that I care about. I feel worried about what I'm seeing, how are you feeling about it? What do you need? What's your vision of your life? What's your vision of what would be the best thing that can have happen here? What's your vision of the most dangerous thing that could happen here? One of the things, because of the way that domestic violence is a pattern that is set up over time, that incremental kind of ramping up of the intensity is part of the recipe of abuse because, you know, rarely does it just go from zero to like, to a thousand, to the big abusive dynamic.
Shannon:
Usually it's just very incremental and slow. And so people, sometimes you don't humans are so brilliant in our ability to adapt. It's one of the things I love about humans. And sometimes in our challenges we can also adapt to unreasonable conditions. Yeah. And so sometimes having a loved person, who's reflecting back to us oh wow. That how that person talked to you. I go really worried about that. And then also setting for people, what would be the thing that would be unreasonable for you? So if this thing happened, you would be like, Nope, I would leave. I would never, ever, ever do that. And having that conversation as early as possible. Because it is very common with survivors that then that thing happens. But then you, you know, you've got your, just new set of like, you know, the water being to the boil being turned up and then reflecting that back when that does happen.
Shannon:
So, oh, Hey, remember we had that conversation and you said like, you know, if that person hit you, that would be the, the line, Hey, that person hit you. You've hit the line. How are you feeling now? So really kind of helping set and re normalize, like what is normal because the kind of crazy making behavior of an abusive relationship where you can, the person who's surviving can often be questioning basic reality of just like, formal is this right? Is this, and so being a person who can help right size, like, yeah, no, it's not like your partner shouting at you all night is not normal or, you know, your par partner, Expecting you to text them back within two minutes of you texting them is not normal. Some of those things to help right size. So yeah, I that's often where I recommend folks start. And what I really heard in this question is also the complexity, if you are in a romantic sexual relationship with that person. So these are the friends of family.
Libby:
Well, yeah. And what comes up for me around that, by the way, I love what you said about asking open-ended questions. But the other thing you said was really just reflecting back what you're seeing and naming, instead of trying to name the overall dynamic and, and try to tell someone what to do instead, you just sort of, you're naming what you're seeing and then saying how you feel about it. Gosh, if someone yelled at me like that, I'd be really upset. How do you feel? Because I think that that comes from a more, I'm just trying to support you kind of places as opposed to a, Hey, I know this is wrong and I'm gonna tell you what to do because you can't see it yourself kind of place. And that, I think that can be a slower process than just yanking someone out of their house.
Libby:
But over time, it's gonna help that person who's in that dynamic. Be able to see it, name it and figure out how to get out of it or shift it. So I love that you said that, but yeah. To your point. Okay. So then adding the complication of a romantic relationship with the person who's in that dynamic and this person said, you know, very clearly, ah, I would really, really love to be able to do a kitchen table dynamic with my partner where we can all be close and where I can be over at their house. And I'm hearing them say, I can't do that because of this harmful dynamic that I'm seeing, that I don't want any part of. I wonder if you can, yeah. Speak a little bit more about that.
Shannon:
I mean, relationships exist in the context about their relationships for everybody. Yeah. Relationships don't live in a level just outside of the right of the worlds and all the other people we know. And I think poly people know this intimately yes, and more obvious, but this is also a dynamic that's true for everyone, which is just like your, our relationships don't exist in isolation. And I really, one of the things I love about so many poly communities and folks is building the skills of how to underst stand the complexity of a complex network of relationships. And I think poly folks have a lot of skill to bring and how to, how do you hold your own boundaries? What is your business? And what's not your business about what other people are doing and it's, it's complex. And one of the strengths of polyamorous relationships are that they can shine a light and to bring more eyes and more resource into romantic and sexual relationships, places that in a kind of Western culture, like we're not gonna dynamic are often thought of to be like private secret places.
Libby:
Yeah. That's so true.
Shannon:
Only the two people who are in relationship with each other should know
Libby:
What everything happens behind closed doors, you know, and it's none of our business to know what's going on there. Whereas here it is our business, it's our business because we are in the same business with each other.
Shannon:
Exactly.
Libby:
Yeah.
Shannon:
Yeah. And so that kind of dynamic of like only, you know, two P build a relationship and it's private, or is a dynamic that can contribute to the isolation and to abuse. And so one of the things that sometimes having just more eyes on a relationship can help bring the light to it can help it not be so secretive. And so that is like, you know, a resilience that I think probably folks can have. I mean, it's not a magic, it's not a magic wand that prevents abuse, but it sometimes,
Libby:
Well No, I mean I think I-
Shannon:
And light on dynamics.
Libby:
Yeah. I mean, the thing I've seen is sometimes the inverse can happen where if you know that you're, you have a very unhealthy dynamic that you're worried about with your partner and you're trying to exist in a community of polyamorous folks and trying to exist with other partners, you're inclination might be to hide it more, you know, because you know that if people saw it they would look down on it or they would be like, oh, that's not okay. And you're not ready to have that be seen and known, even if you're the partner who's in the abusive PO in the abused position, if you're the harmed party, you still might wanna protect your partner from people seeing them that way I've seen that happen. Maybe you've seen that happen too. I think sometimes within a polyamorous dynamic, it can even that can drive that isolation more. If you are in that position of go, I don't want anybody to see this kind of thing. So I mean, it can be kind of a double-edged sword, I think.
Shannon:
Yeah. I think that that thing that you're describing is a really common dynamic. I see across the all different kinds of relationships, which is there is this misnomer that love that people and abusive relationships don't love each other. And that is just not really the question. Yeah. People who are in abusive relationships often love each other very much. It is that combination of all the things you love about somebody and the pattern of violence and harm that put together that sit so complicated and makes it so hard to leave. And if it was just all bad, nobody would stick around for something was all bad. It's the combination of the love and care with the harm that often takes survivors many times to leave a relationship, because that is a very like the complexity of holding someone who loves you. Who's also harming you is a really hard to hold onto. And so people instinctively wanna protect someone they love and care about. And it can take time to understand, understand how to navigate that in any kinda relationship.
Libby:
Well, and when you and I spoke about this before, you mentioned that as one of the things that you'd want this listener to know in terms of existing in this dynamic with them is understanding that you said it really well. Like there's a long arc, a lot of times to disentangling this kind of situation. And so if you're really invested in a person who's in that dynamic, I love that you start with resourcing yourself. And part of that is because I think it's gonna take time possibly more time than you even have to sus all this stuff out and really work through it. Especially if you follow that model of empowering the person and really getting them to see it and really getting them to like work through what they want. I kind of love that you, that you highlight, like when we spoke about it before they, you highlighted, like it's a long arc, it can take a while. And if you're not patient and really centering your partner, then you might get, I don't know what frustrated and overwhelmed. So that's, I think that's an important thing to keep in mind.
Shannon:
Yeah. It's common for loved ones to feel fatigued by that pattern and feel fatigued by the like, why can't you see that this is like that this is harmful and really want to like that instinct to wanna like go extract someone you love is such a powerful instinct. And I've had that. And I know that it would be one thing if it worked, it just doesn't work to go extract people. And so if it did great, then we'd be in a different conversation, but you know, it doesn't work. And so figuring out how do you find patience and also how do you are, how are you well boundary because just because somebody is participating on, you know, is experiencing a wacky dynamic, doesn't mean you have to be at the behest of that dynamic. You get to set boundaries, you get to decide, you know, what you are available for.
Shannon:
And so, you know, being loving and kind and clear about, you know, what you can do and what you can't and you know, what you are available to show up and to make sure to offer what you can, that is sustainable. So it it's much better to like figure out what you could be offering for the next year around support than to do one big push and then be aren't out that you don't have anything left. And so often that steady support is what makes sense and one resource for this. So there's a book. Friendship is social justice activism. I have an article in that book called I get by with a little help from my friends ending domestic violence, one friendship at a time. Oh. And
Libby:
So what a great title
Shannon:
And give title is a, a journey I'm on. And one of the things about that book is, or that book in general is really thinking about relationships and about that article is it's centering friendships, but it's really meant to be thinking about like, someone you love is in an abusive dynamic, what should you do? And so it gets into more detail than we have time or capacity to get to here. But I recommend checking that out as a re source to really think about, especially this question of how do you resource yourself? How do you think about boundaries when you are supporting somebody who's in an abusive dynamic?
Libby:
You know, another thing that I'm thinking about too, is that what other resources does this person have besides their partner? You know, a thing that can happen sometimes is they only have their romantic partner. That's the only person in their life. I have that experience of, of knowing like certain people, the only people that they really get intimate with and rely on are the people that they're in romantic relationships with, but it seems like it would be ideal if it wasn't just on this one person to support them. Like if they had family members or they had other friends or helping professional, like a counselor or, you know, and I guess like, if you could think about like, what kind, how, how to resource their, their partner more, without it feeling like, oh, I'm foisting them off on the other people, you know, like, you know, you don't, cuz it sounds like this, this person who wrote in they're really worried about like abandoning their partner or like not helping them enough, what would you say to, you know, trying to get them more, more resources, more people, more, more things at their disposal so that it's not just on them.
Shannon:
Yeah. Part of creating the world where domestic violence is rare and not like, and where it doesn't exist is about the process of creating a world where people have more pillars of support, where people have many strong pillars holding them up and not just one person or one, one or two things because many strong pillars make for a strong person, a strong community, cuz one of those pillars can knocked out and you can still be standing. Yeah. So, you know, and I, I am painfully aware that especially for many survivors that is like a vision that is really hard to imagine. And so like that's the world we're trying to create where everyone has many strong connections where like one of those folks can be like tapped out and there's, you know, three or four people who can tap in. And you know, I worked with survivors who like the barista, who they saw every morning, who they got their coffee from was their most regular connection because there's the isolation that survivors experience is real and not everyone has the big world of a vision of what like strong pillars.
Shannon:
And so even the littlest bit more of connection, little bit more of light can be really powerful. And so yeah, if that is sort of professionalized help like a therapist there are wonderful groups. I really recommend folks get connected to a domestic violence advocate. If that is the kinds of support you're looking for. I'm the biggest champion of domestic violence advocacy, because what it is really doing is thinking about how to increase people's, self-determination how to be a, you know, a resource person who is helping another person sort of walk through it, talk through it often over time, domestic violence advocacy in general is free support that is available and are really trained in not bossing survivors, but really supporting survivors in what they want for their vision of their life. Yeah. And so that is, especially if finances are a barrier for things like therapy or other kinds of groups.
Shannon:
In our current context, the pandemic many domestic violence programs have created their support groups online. So in some ways it's actually more accessible to more people. Cuz you don't have to just go to the one program physically closest to you. Yeah. And the folks are looking for those resources. I highly recommend getting in touch with the national domestic violence hotline. They are, they provide sort of of short term domestic violence advocacy, but they are also very well networked with domestic violence programs across the country. And so they will also work to get you connected with an advocate in your area who can really help folks think through things, get connected, do safety planning with other kinds of resources, thinking about what the barriers are getting away helping with friends and family kinds of support. So that's also another way that folks can resource, if that is available support that's not available in their communities or friendships or families.
Libby:
That's amazing. I guess I wanna like highlight for folks who are listening, you know, when you think about, oh well I'm not experiencing violence, maybe I shouldn't call the domestic violence hotline. I would broaden your definition of violence, objectifying somebody and taking away their choices. That can be a form of violence, controlling someone, whether it's through finances or whether it's through manipulation, that can be a form of violence. We don't just have to be talking about people getting physically hit to count as violence. So I mean I'm I'm right. Yeah. I mean right. Shannon like
Shannon:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. We, I mean, I think again, when we go back to that definition as a pattern of power and control is that it's the controlling, it's the feeling like your world is getting smaller, feeling like you have less choices. If you feel like secretive about your relationship, that there's things that are happening, that you shouldn't tell anybody else, if you feel like your your choices are getting less and less, that those are the things that are the hallmarks that we wanna pay attention to. Right. And those can happen with physical violence. Those can also happen without physical violence, but other tactics, of manipulation and control.
Libby:
Yeah. Cool. In terms of, I think the, you know, the last thing I wanted to kind of touch on is you talked about before sort of resourcing the, the partner, cuz this is from the partner who's witnessing the abuse from their standpoint, you talked about resourcing them, you talked about them getting clear on their own boundaries and finding what kind of support they can offer. That's sustainable in terms of, you know, how do you figure out what is too much and when is moment to step away and when is a moment to step in, how do they kind of figure out when this is unhealthy for them and they need to protect themselves more, you know, how do they get resourced themselves? What would you say?
Shannon:
One of the things that I love so much as a tool for this is really thinking about ring theory, which, you know, at its short is, you know, you offer support in and you get support out from the rings outside. So for this person who wrote in, you know, they offer support towards their partner, who's experiencing sort of centered experiencing the harm and then look outwards on the next ring of support of people to get support. So, you know, is that is the person who wrote in have other partners, lovers, friends, family, member, a therapist, folks in their life who can help talk it through, help, understand, help get right size. It's just very hard without support to get a good grounding about what's happening and, you know, checking in and just doing that kind of gut check with other loved ones who aren't, the person who's experiencing the harm is a really wonderful way to help us feel more resourced, to help support the people who are at the center of the kind of most impacted support people need support people.
Libby:
Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah.
Shannon:
And so that piece around just like, you know, doing your own work is that, you know, what is your own work of knowing like knowing when you are tapped out, knowing, you know, and how to have the skills and, and if those are skills that need support to be building where to get that, that help around saying like, you know, I love you so much. And I can't, you know, I can't participate in this thing or I can't, you know, I need to take a break from hearing about this or, you know, whatever is the ask. And that you can be supporting someone and still have requests. You don't have to just give everything of yourself to a person who's struggling. They actually need you to be well resourced and to be grounded and to not be drowning with them, but actually a grounded person who is like loving and caring with them, but not drowning yourself.
Libby:
Well, and I really like what you said there too about not just being a well of support for them, but not asking anything of them, whether it's asking them to abide by a limit or I always say that with ring theory and I did an episode on ring theory. I love ring area is that you, around this particular issue you give support in and you dump and, and you dump out. So like, you know, your partner, if they're in an abusive situation, sure. They can ask you for support around that and you're not gonna go to them and go, oh, this is so hard for me to hear about this. You know, that would be an appropriate, but it doesn't mean you never get to ask anything of that person in that relationship. And it can be really ironically empowering to set limits with them and ask them to abide by those limits to ask them for care around other kinds of things that you need.
Libby:
Cuz I think sometimes when we are, and I think this is common in all kinds of when we have a partner in crisis that we tend to shrink ourselves because we don't wanna be the problem. One, we don't wanna be any trouble. We don't wanna ask for anything. You have it hard enough, honey. I don't, you know, I don't wanna ask you for anything and you know, that can really ultimately kind of degrade that relationship and make it kind of a one way thing and actually not make it the supportive pillar that it needs to be. And I always check, I'm like, Hey babe, do you have a chance to hear about this? I know you're having a rough day. You know, do you have a little space for me so that I'm not just like putting it on them, but giving them the opportunity to care for you can actually help them feel better about themselves and feel more capable and competent and relational.
Libby:
So, I mean, if I was gonna give anybody advice in this situation, it would be that, that, like, don't be afraid to ask for things from your partner sometimes empowering them to be a good agent with you and be a good agent on behalf of the relationship can help with that empowerment. It's sort of like giving them a chance to have something really healthy, something they can stand on and go, I'm capable of having a healthy relationship. I'm capable of sticking up for myself here. I'm capable of giving to my partner in a way that feels free rather than coerced, you know, et cetera. So I mean that's yeah,
Shannon:
I used this phrase of like allowing people have the dignity of their own choice. There's a lot of dignity in coming to somebody and saying like, this is what I need. And I am trusting you as a person, like an agent who's in charge of yourself, not a power human to make your own choices and to do that. There's like dignity in that and there's respect in that. And so actually like approaching somebody as another human who's in charge of themself and is loving and actually can give someone an opportunity to like flex and practice that muscle of what it is to receive requests and honor them and to get to like, cuz that's part of equitable loving relationships is like you have to have two people who are both doing their work, who can be like in charge of themselves, like doing the dance with each other.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think also on the flip side of that, like inviting, if your partner feels like they don't have choices with their other partner, inviting them to have choices with you, inviting them to set boundaries with you and say, no, actually I don't wanna talk about that or no, actually I don't have that in me, you know, is also a piece of that too, I think. Yeah.
Shannon:
And I think just to say to this person's question, like I also just wanna say like I am so like, I can just really feel like what is the struggle of this question and the, and like, and how nuanced the path forward is on that. And so I just, I also just wanted to offer that in like a tender way as like, I really hear that it is like a really complex task to do that. The task they're asking and that, you know, I was in a situation where my partner was in an unhealthy relationship and it was some of the like most nuanced hard fought skills I ever had to do to figure out how like stay in my lane to like be boundaried and that like, it took me a very long time and it's a very, like, it was something I could actually like very, it was hard to express and I could really only about what with the right balance of like, you know, being in a loving relationship with my partner and making peace in my heart that he was going, he was on his own journey that he was gonna do what he was gonna do in that other relationship.
Shannon:
It literally took, you know, a year of like dedicated work inside myself to come do a place of peace with that. And so I just, I, I don't, I wanted to just share the weight that I really hear in that question and what the nuance task that is for folks.
Libby:
Well, yeah, one of the reasons why I wanted to answer this listener question and why it was so important to me to bring you into the conversation, Shannon is I've been there too. I've been in that situation as well. And in some ways I wanted, you know, someone who has a lot more experience and who's done a lot more research and a lot more advocacy for a lot more people to bring,utheir thoughts into it as well, because this is freaking hard. Okay. So if you are listening and you're in this situation, it's really hard and you're not gonna do it perfectly and you're gonna have to learn a lot of things and you have to get really skilled and it's can sometimes be, feel like threading a needle, you know?
Shannon:
Yeah exactly.
Libby:
So have a lot of compassion for yourself and have a lot of compassion for your partner because they're having a really freaking hard time too.
Libby:
And, and it's okay. I just wanna be the voice of this. And I know she, and you'll back me up on it, but I just wanna say, it's also okay to say, I need a break. I need to tap out for a little while and that's not abandoning. That's not you, you know, saying you don't care. It's if you burn out and you get resentful, well, that's not good for your relationship or your, or either. So it's really good to take a step back if you need to. It's really good to lovingly care for yourself. And it's also okay if you know, if you stumble along the way. So I'm really glad that we got a chance to talk about this together. Is there any last things that you'd wanna say before we wrap up?
Shannon:
I think I just wanna echo what you just said, which is like, it is impossible to do this task perfectly. Yeah.
Libby:
So
Shannon:
To just like relieve ourselves of this idea of perfection or this idea of like that someone somewhere like knows how to do it. And we just don't know how to do it. That like the only path forward on this is by practicing is by like getting, doing our, to say like grounded and clear about our values and then to just try a bunch of stuff as lovingly and as kindly and as honestly as we can. And so, yeah, I wanna just encourage folks to just really know that, like everybody's figuring this out together and this is collective skills, we're all building. And so I appreciate, you know, this, the person who in just like honesty and just what I really saw is just like, I'm just trying to figure this out. Like, and what are other people trying to do and get that shared city.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and hopefully someday we'll live in a world where, you know, we don't have to be trying to figure these kinds of things out because this isn't what happens. And so I'm sorry that this is what's happening and for anybody else who's listening. Like I said, I don't this listeners alone that this is an experience that is unfortunately actually common. Shannon, would you be willing to just recap like the, you know, top five things like that, you know, that we said so that if anybody like skips to the end and TLDR is this episode, like these are the top things that we want them to remember.
Shannon:
Yeah. If I were to summarize kind of the path forward, it's I understanding what domestic violence is as a pattern of power and control, understanding that self-determination for people experiencing domestic violence is the path forward. So we center folks, self-determination thinking about the importance of treating many strong pillars of connection for all of us, for everybody. And that it is essential to ground yourself, to resource yourself, to get clear about what you want and need so that you can be good, loving support to everyone around you, including people who are in abusive relationships.
Libby:
Oh, beautiful. Beautiful, Shannon. Thank you so much for being here. I am gonna link Shannon. You've sent me a bunch of a bunch of links to the domestic violence hotline to the article you wrote in the book. I think there were a few other things you sent me. I'll link them all in the show notes. I'll link about ring theory for those of you who wanna read more about that, but I really wanna thank you Shannon for being here. This was a wonderful conversation.
Shannon:
Thank you so much for having me. It was a joy way to get to dive more deeply into this conversation and how to offer support to folks all over.
