Sexual Health When You're Positive with Courtney Brame
Transcript
Libby Sinback:
Hi, Courtney. I'm so glad to have you here.
Courtney:
Thank you. Thanks for having me here.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, my gosh. I've been wanting you on my show for a while now. I'm so glad that we finally made it work. So I know that I just introduced you and just read your bio, but Courtney, just. Would you be comfortable just now just introducing yourself, like, say a little about you, the humans?
Courtney:
Yeah. Do we have enough time for that in this podcast recording?
Libby Sinback:
Absolutely.
Courtney:
I will make this as concise as possible. My name is Courtney Brame, founder, executive director, podcast host, marketing director, podcast producer, consultant, yoga instructor, support resource and health care educator, trainer. If you want to call that, of something positive for positive people, this is a 501 C three nonprofit organization that offers a variety of holistic support resources for people who are navigating herpes. Stigma.
Libby Sinback:
That's. That is a mouthful. I hit it like you're a renaissance man.
Courtney:
I appreciate that.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah. So something positive for positive people. What. What was the impetus for you to start this organization?
Courtney:
So I was diagnosed with herpes, genital herpes, I want to say it's been eleven years now, and I, about four years into it, stumbled across this dating site for people living with herpes. And when I was there, I saw that there were people who expressed suicide ideation because of their diagnosis, saying how cool dating was, how hard it was to find a relationship. And this is on a dating site where the main thing that people are concerned about is kind of alleviated, because everybody has herpes on the dating site, so there should be no issues. Right. But there were. And hearing and seeing it enough times on the blogs, the forums, even people just confiding in me, what I started to do was ask people in the support groups that I was part of if anyone was willing to have an anonymous conversation with me about their experience with herbeats, they could share their first name, make up a name. But what this did was it gave people a safe place, safe in terms of their anonymity, in order to really talk about their experiences living with herpes in a way that was intentional, that they may not have been able to do before then.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And so you were gathering all this data about what people really needed, and it sounds like what you were really seeing was a real big need for a level of support that people just weren't getting correct.
Courtney:
So much of it was even just the space to talk about their experiences, because diagnosed and depending on the quality of and the time of your healthcare provider who tests you or you present symptoms to, they may not have the time to give you resources that are useful. They may not have the ability to support you mentally and emotionally. So this resource fills that need of the emotional and mental support and even just venting and hearing a person out. I offer one on one, donation based support calls through the nonprofit for people to just make a donation of what they can. And then we book time together, and sometimes it's just a need to be heard. So someone might just share. This is what happened. They might share some traumatizing things, but to be witnessed in presence with another person who has a shared experience or who at least understands after having talked to so many people at this point, about the same thing, I think that what that does is it opens up for people to have some sort of emotional healing occur, to know that they're safe to speak about something that historically has not maybe been safe for them to speak about.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, and I mean, yeah. Can we talk about the stigma that comes along with a herpes diagnosis?
Courtney:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Because it's. It's so huge. Like, the. I remember, like, it used to be like a. Like a joke in, like, middle school. Right? You know, ooh, don't drink after that person. You'll get herpes is the. And, like, there were all these, like, really, like, jokes about it, meaning that you're dirty, meaning that you're.
Libby Sinback:
And then later on, as, you know, sex comes into the picture, and it's an STI, although it's not exclusively an STI, which is, you know, important to say. But then it. You know, it comes. It comes with all these other negative associations and even just, like, I don't know about you, Courtney, but, like, it's an easy, like, swipe. What is it? Which is it? Swipe left or swipe right when you don't like somebody? Is it. It's an easy swipe left for me if someone says I'm clean. But, like, that, in and of itself, is so stigmatizing. So I guess I'm wondering if, like, I guess, what do you have to say about the stigma? And just like.
Libby Sinback:
Because, I mean, that seems like something that comes with a diagnosis, but that, like you said, people, that it keeps people silent so they can't talk about it.
Courtney:
Yeah. I think I had to learn this through two things. One is my relationship to other people who have herpes and then my relationship to my own diagnosis. So what I've come to realize is that stigma cannot coexist with truth. It can only exist with the narrative that you feed about it. So.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, wait, I want you to say that first part again. Stigma.
Courtney:
Stigma cannot coexist with truth because stigma.
Libby Sinback:
Cannot coexist with truth.
Courtney:
As we look at what stigma is, or it's really a bunch of different things, it's a stereotype, right? It stereotypes a person who has this condition as the kind of person who blank, right? The blank can be has a lot of sexual partners. It can be is not safe. And I use air quotes when I say safe with their sexual partners and their sexuality. This person is dirty. This person. And then you can just associate negative behaviors with said person. But there's nothing to be said for the people who willingly have sex with someone who has herpes, or the people who have herpes and don't know their status or the systems in place that put barriers in place to us even knowing what our herpes status is. But that's a whole nother conversation.
Courtney:
So to people about herpes stigma, I would say, like, it's very important not to feed and prioritize the herpes stigma itself in relation to you. Because what I find is that when we connect ourselves to our identity, when we connect ourselves where our identity is reflected, whether that be different community settings, environments, social settings, what happens is we begin to minimize stigma and its impacts because we're facing a reality of immediate surroundings that we have to be present with. So when we think about stigma, the real thing about herpes at all is that we really only need to think about it or do anything about it when we have to, a, tell someone that we're gonna have sex with, or b, if we're having and experiencing any symptoms, that's it. But people will make it their life mission to learn everything there is about herpes. Listen to every something positive for positive people podcast episode in hopes of something. For some people, it might just be getting that support, feeling like they're in the room with two or more intelligent people speaking confidently about living with herpes. And that can be healing. But what I see is that when people go down that rabbit hole of learning that they have this diagnosis, there's this hope for a cure.
Courtney:
There's, like, curiosity about, okay, where are we with the cure for this? We cure everything else. Why can't we cure anything? This. And there's kind of this denial stage that happens, but this is all as a result of stigma. We're scared to tell someone about our diagnosis. We might be afraid to be found out. We might be afraid of rejection, even from a partner. But the is like, none of those things matter. When you begin to divert your attention away from herpes stigma, and you start to look at your own response relationship to it, and then you challenge what your beliefs are about yourself in relation to herpes and herpes stigma with actual behaviors.
Courtney:
If you're scared that you're going to be rejected, think about the times that you weren't rejected and you were to have continued or gotten into a sexual relationship with someone. Because a lot of people fear that. They fear not being able to connect with people in that way. And at the point of challenging that and then connecting with someone, there's this sense of, oh, my goodness, I can do it. And there's this hopefulness that comes after that that allows for a person to reshape those beliefs about themselves in relation to stigma.
Libby Sinback:
So when, I want to reflect back what you just said there, actually, because I thought that was a really great nugget, which, you know, overall, I hear what you're saying is that, like, stigma is something we can choose or not choose to carry around inside us and aim toward ourselves. And that if we start to move away from, like, fixating on it, that that can be part of the healing process. Am I getting that right?
Courtney:
That is part of the healing process, yes.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. But then I love what you said about rejection, which is, you know, of course, a fear that comes up if you're going to tell a partner, a potential new sexual partner, hey, I have herpes, the scary thing is that they'll immediately recoil and decline the sexual encounter and maybe decline any kind of relationship with you. But you point out that happens all the time for all kinds of reasons. And also, we do that all the time for all kinds of reasons. We turn down a sexual encounter, someone doesn't smell right or someone said who they voted for, and you suddenly are like, oh, nope, never mind. But it's interesting that with herpes, what would happen if that was somehow a deal breaker for someone that we were interested in? What we'll do, what I think what people will do with that diagnosis, if they're really caught in the story of the stigma, is they'll make it bigger. They'll make it, therefore I am unfuckable.
Libby Sinback:
Therefore I am unlovable, which, again, I think we can do with a lot of things. We're worried about being rejected around, and we have to work through those in order to keep putting ourselves out there. So I just wanted to. I think that's such a beautiful and important thing to, like, remember is that, like, rejection's part of the dating process and. And so, like, part of living with this diagnosis is learning how to release yourself from that. Meaning you're unlovable and unfuckable. And if someone doesn't, if someone turns you down, that doesn't have to mean that everyone will.
Courtney:
Well, so much of what I'm learning is that sexual health is mental health, and a person's diagnosis should just be something where they're like, oh, this affects my sexual health, this affects my sexuality. But our identity is so interconnected with our sexuality and our ability to connect with another person, relationship wise, sex wise, body wise. Right? And now we get that diagnosis, and we feel cut off from connecting because that's kind of all we know. So it's. I. No one's gonna want to love me. No one's gonna want to be with me. But if you go underneath that, the reality is less people are gonna want to have sex with you simply because we don't have a lot of consistent and accurate and honest information about the virus.
Courtney:
I did a survey in 2021, interviewing 1100 people on living with herpes about whether or not, to their knowledge, if they passed herpes onto a partner who has consented to sex with them despite their diagnosis. And more than 70% of people said that they have not knowingly transmitted the virus to said partner. Right. And we look at these statistics that exist. It just says the transmission rate is this. But what does that mean? That tells me less. All that tells me is somebody can get herpes from me. It doesn't tell me the likelihood or the precautions that can go into place in order to minimize the possibility of that happening.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, I think that's so important to highlight about this particular virus. And you said this on another podcast I listened to about, like, this. One of the big things that makes having herpes in particular stressful is that you get such conflicting information about what the heck you're supposed to do with it and, like, what you're supposed to do with that information and what that means for you. I mean, you know what it means for you if you've had an outbreak, if you haven't ever had an outbreak, as far as you know, you still don't know what that means to you. And like you said, the. The information is just so foggy. And, you know, what's interesting is, like, when I've talked to people who are. I've.
Libby Sinback:
I have. I've tested positive for HSV one. As far as I know, I haven't had an outbreak. But the people that I've talked to who have either HSV one or HSV two, really, it's about them just kind of getting to know their own body and really understanding how. How they work and, like, they can kind of feel if something is off and if they, you know, and if they're. Or if they've had a period of, like, high stress or something like that, like, kind of knowing their triggers and knowing what works for them. And I guess I'm wondering if you could speak to that a little bit. Like, in terms of, like.
Libby Sinback:
Well, actually, I want to. I want to zoom back because I feel like this is maybe getting. Because I had a really important question, which is, like, what would you want someone who is newly diagnosed to know? Like, if you could just, like, sit down next to them, put your arm around them, take you take them under your wing, and you could just tell them, hey, it's going to be all right. Here's what you need. Understanding that, like, it doesn't always work like that, but, like, if you could, what would you want someone who's newly diagnosed to know?
Courtney:
I would want them to know that, first off, you know, going back to the sexual health, this mental health thing is that the core reason of what I see people struggle with is their identity. And this diagnosis invalidates their identity, and they look for supporting evidence that validates this invalidation of their identity stigma. Right. All of the things that a person might have thought about a person with herpes out there is now internally directed because of their diagnosis, and they feel like this is who they are. But there's a direct conflict between who a person is and who they think they are. So if I'm telling someone that, hey, you're just diagnosed, here's what I think your best, most effective next step is. It would be to talk to someone who knows them outside of their herpes diagnosis. Someone can validate their identity.
Courtney:
Someone who can say, oh, okay, I didn't know that. Thank you for telling me. I don't look at you any different than I did 10 seconds before you told me that. Right?
Libby Sinback:
Wow.
Courtney:
I can't offer that to people. They have instagram and reach out to me. Like, I can scroll through the pictures and, like, bring up activities and interest that they show. You know, that is a part of who they are. Like, I can remind them of that, but it doesn't really mean anything coming for me. I'm a stranger on the Internet that just happened to have herpes. Right. And I'm also low risk.
Courtney:
Right. If I don't respond to you, you lose nothing. But if you say something to a friend, and you go, hey, I have herpes. And this is someone that you've known for 20 years. And if they're not okay with that, or if they have some internalized stigma that they need to handle and they just distance themselves from you, that hurts like hell and are deathly afraid of that. But also, if you tell that person and they meet you with curiosity, gratitude, and they meet you, you know, with, oh, I don't see you any different, you're still my friend. Validates your identity in a way that shows you that there's somebody out there close to you who sees you. And recognizing that herpes and herpes stigma are completely irrelevant compared to your identity outside of that.
Courtney:
And only people close to us can show us that, but we are afraid of losing that friendship, losing that connection or that relationship.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, gosh, that sounds so important. And also so risky, like you said, because what if because of their own internalized stuff, they can't respond positively. Instead they go, oh, wow, I didn't realize you were that kind of person, or something like that. Like, that's hugely risky and would be heartbreaking. At the same time, you'd learn an awful lot about your friend or a family member that you might need to know if you're going to live forward in this life.
Courtney:
And I think a lot of people are afraid of finding that out. Let people know they have unhealthy friendships, connections, relationships. And facing the reality of that is a lot harder than anything else when it comes to this diagnosis, because that relationship, that an unhealthy relationship with that person who abuses you verbally or is unhealthy or unable to hold space for you emotionally, who's unable to really offer you what you need. But maybe the sex is great, right? When at those kinds of, uh, relationships and people, like, staying in these, it's simply because of this fear of losing the. The. Some aspect of that.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I guess maybe here we could also talk about scarcity model, right? Like the belief that, uh, you know, there's only going to be so many people out there that are going to be our friend or that are going to be attracted to us or that are going to want to sleep with us. And, you know, that depends on where you situate yourself, you know, in the, like, marketplace mentality of sexuality. Because, you know, like now it really is like a marketplace. You know, you get on these apps and you're looking at just pictures and you're swiping and. And so it really does feel like this, like people are getting rated in a way. I mean, I know that was always the case, but. But I just think about that.
Libby Sinback:
So that scarcity model can also create that fear, right? Like, oh, I finally got someone who's interested in me, or I've got this friend that I've had for years, and I've built this long relationship, and now I'm going to put it on the line by sharing this like that. Like, I can understand why that would just be terrifying, even with someone that, like, obviously, I think it's important to share that with someone who you're having sex with or who you're going to be having sex with. But even, like you were saying, like, a friend or a family member, that scarcity thing can really. Can make people scared.
Courtney:
Yeah, yeah. And it often does more harm than it does good. Because if you need to lose that connection, friendship, relationship that you have, and this would be the thing to make it go away. Like, it needs to happen. And it probably happened for a long time, but sometimes, like, this is something that we just don't want to do. We don't want to let go, you know, because you might be getting something out of it. And letting go is, in fact, like, a very challenging thing. In fact, I teach yoga.
Courtney:
I think I mentioned that at the beginning.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, you did. Yeah.
Courtney:
I'm putting together, or I have put together, like, a series of yoga classes utilizing doctor David R. Hawkins mechanism for processing, experiencing and letting go of emotions in a yin restorative style yoga class. And what I find is that as people are so attached to certain relationships, identities, things, the releasing of that attachment begins to be where they experience healing. Because as you begin to recognize, like, that, you have that choice of letting go of the person. Like, that's a big step. It's like swallowing a hamburger whole. Right. Maybe a bite of it at a time is letting go of, you know, the comforts that that person offers you, maybe the sex itself, or maybe the fact that, you know, that when you text them, they will text you back.
Courtney:
Right. And it kind of goes down the line, like, who this friend is, who this partner is. Being able to just start to look at what the payoffs are from being in this harmful relationship or a scarcity mindset of a relationship, and then being able to welcome in something that's better and more aligned for you. That's gonna.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Courtney:
In the process of having to become that kind of person. But when you get there, it's like, why didn't I do this earlier?
Libby Sinback:
I love what you say there about, like, when you really do release something that's not for you, that's making room for the thing that is. I think that's really beautiful.
Courtney:
Absolutely.
Libby Sinback:
So I think I'm thinking another thing that maybe we should talk about when we're thinking about someone who's newly diagnosed or maybe is newly dating and is thinking about, like, stepping into the realm of, yeah, dating, having sex with new partners. And that's a lot of people who listen to my podcast because it's a polyamory podcast. How would you recommend people start to approach talking about this with potential new partners? Because I think that's, like, another one of the most terrifying things that people voice is, like, oh, gosh, how do I talk about this? How do I. How do I, you know, and I just want to highlight one thing. I see you, like, you're, like, real excited. You're ready to go. But I just want to highlight, one of the things that came up in a group that I'm in was someone was saying, like, gosh, I kind of want to be able to have casual sexual encounters, like, because I'm not sure if I want to get super serious or involved with somebody, but I also have to tell them this really serious thing. And it's like, how do I tell them this really serious thing? And also, it's not like, inviting them into a deep relationship with me.
Libby Sinback:
I don't want them to feel like they're, by doing this with me, they have to, like, get all committed. That's not what they're looking for. So, yeah, I'd love for you to speak to that.
Courtney:
Yeah. This herpes, the stigma, all of it is a vulnerable thing in the dating world that we live in, you kind of have to be even protective of your emotions. And as people with herpes who might have experienced that, you know, process of getting the diagnosis, being down, having to, you know, the fear that's there, and then being at a place of putting yourself back out there, there is a lot of emotions to be experienced there, and we sort of become more emotionally aware where. Right, there's this thing called disclosure fatigue, where you work up the courage, you go through the process, you're thinking, okay, I messed with this person. We're talking conversations going, well, oh, my God, I have herpes. When am I going to tell this person? How am I going to tell this person? How are they going to react? What if they don't want to have sex with me? And we got all of these thoughts that are just racing, right.
Libby Sinback:
And then, yeah, and you haven't even said anything yet.
Courtney:
You haven't? Oh, we get to the point of disclosing to said person and said person, you know, decides what they want to do with that information. But like that, all of that is so exhausting, right? To go through the process and then to do it again and again and again. But what we have to understand is that what we're doing is we are also extending an invitation for vulnerability and emotional connection to another human being. And in this dating climate, where your next sexual partner is a thumb swipe away, they are to the right, of course, or they're, they're that readily available. We do have a lot of options. And people, you know, if they don't mesh, can just not move forward with somebody. So if you're in front of somebody and you made it through that whole process and you match, and now you're like, okay, here's the big thing. I gotta talk to them.
Courtney:
We have to understand that it's not just them looking at our herpes diagnosis, but it's also them looking at the fact that they kind of have to protect themselves from the ghosting, the one and dones, the incompatibilities, the mismatching in the relationships. So there might not be that willingness to connect vulnerably and emotionally. So they might not even be saying no to the herpes. They're saying no to the discomfort of having to have that conversation themselves if they are to have sex with you. And then they get it, and now they have to be vulnerable. So it's more of like a fear of emotion and a fear of, or avoidance of, uh, vulnerability.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, wait, wait. I I want you to repeat that one too. That's really good. So just like what you're saying here is that when you're approaching that conversation, where the tension is, is you don't know this person yet, they don't know you. You're both in danger of being rejected, you're both in danger of being vulnerable. And there's emotions swirling and there's excitement, but also anxiety and all these different things. And what you're saying is, am I getting this right? That when you're putting out there things about you that are genuine, that are vulnerable, that are taking risks, some people might pull away, not because of your diagnosis, but just because, oh, shit, you put something real out there. I am not ready for real yet.
Libby Sinback:
And I definitely don't want to have to have this real conversation with anybody else. I'm not ready for that. Am I getting. Is that what you're basically saying, yeah.
Courtney:
So that's a part of it. Yeah, I think that, like, that's maybe a third of the whole of it. Right. So that can be the case, but also a person can hear that and go, oh, my God, like, I haven't experienced this before, and I love this. This makes me feel closer to you. This makes me feel more connected to you. I am more attracted to you. This is something real because there's a lot of reality out there because, again, we have to kind of get better at being avoidant of emotions and connecting so that we can have the kinds of relationships that hookup culture, the online dating has sort of created.
Libby Sinback:
Right. So this is also, like, an opportunity is what I'm hearing there. Like, it's this opportunity if I put my stuff out there, even though I'm having to talk about this diagnosis. And hopefully that's not all you're talking about. Right. But when you're thinking about compatibility and whether you want to hook up with somebody or not, hopefully you're talking about a lot more. But this is one of the things you have to put out there. But it seems like what I'm hearing you say is that, like, you putting it out there because you feel like, well, I have to.
Libby Sinback:
You're in. It's an invitation for someone else to be vulnerable if they've been hungry for that.
Courtney:
Correct.
Libby Sinback:
And so there are some people who are going to be like, fuck, yeah, let's be vulnerable. Thank God someone's letting me do that, and I don't have to worry about being the first one, or, I don't have to worry about that being too much or whatever. Am I getting it?
Courtney:
Yeah, that's it.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. I mean, that's how I am. For sure. For sure. Nothing calms me down more in a new sexual connection than for someone to say, hey, here are my turn ons. Here is what I like. Here is what I don't like. Here are my STI status.
Libby Sinback:
Here's the last time I got tested without me having to ask. And as a way of showing care, but also of letting me get to know that part of them, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's hot. Yeah, actually.
Courtney:
So did you already go through the stars talk?
Libby Sinback:
I wanted you to talk about it. I do use the stars talk when I talk to new sexual partners. For sure. I am on the demi ace side of things, and I have a very sensitive body, and there are all kinds of things I have to talk about before I have sex, and it's not usually about an STI although I do disclose about. I have tested positive for the HSV one. And so you should know that I've never had an outbreak, but you should know that I've tested positive for that. So you could get it. Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
I don't know is what it's. But, you know, then I also, that I have to do a lot of talking about my body and how it works. Um, which is why I don't have sex a lot, is because I actually don't. I don't always want to have that conversation. I guess I'm one of those people that like, when the vulnerability feels good and safe, I'm so into it when I'm having to do all the heavy lifting. And then I have to see, are you, are you down with this or is this too much for you? That's. You're so right. It's so uncomfortable and it's.
Libby Sinback:
And again, for me, it's not about disclosing. It's not about disclosing something that I'm afraid that they're going to reject me over. Exactly. But more just like, ugh, I'm sorry, you've got to slog through all of this stuff to get into this. I've got to explain that. Like, I can't use silicone based loops, like, I can't use latex condoms. Like, I have to go through the system. So, like.
Courtney:
Anyway, well, what you're explaining here is the stars talk, essentially. So one of my board members, Doctor Evelyne Dacre, created this framework for talking about sexual health, relationship intentions, compatibility. And you do it kind of beautifully already. But the first s is for safety, the t is for turn ons, the a is for your avoids the RS for relationship intention. And then the second s is where we talk about sexual health. I host workshops on this pretty often, actually.
Libby Sinback:
Awesome.
Courtney:
Be able to engage. There's a recording on the something positive for positive people website if anyone wants to go through the disclosure workshop. But if you just kind of. If you subscribe to the newsletter, like, I'll send you the date for the next one. So there's that little plug for it.
Libby Sinback:
But absolutely. I mean, I'll just name that. I think for a lot of people, they like the idea of talking about this stuff, but then when they're actually in the moment, I think it, it can get, if you're not used to it, the same way you might not be used to, like, your elevator pitch, you know, so like the way that you wouldn't, uh, you wouldn't be used to, like, your elevator pitch about a new job that you got. Like, you kind of have to practice it. And I'm wondering, do you get to practice in your workshops, like, saying your stars thing to someone and then having it say back, having them say it back to you?
Courtney:
So, yeah, it depends on how receptive the audience is generally in person. Like, we do role plays. We do play around with that. But the thing I understand, though, is, and you were bringing this up earlier when you were talking about it, is that it's not really a disclosure. It's a discussion. Right.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Courtney:
You don't have to show up with, like, a list of things that you can't do unless you're into that because that can be hot, too. But if you're like, can't use latex condoms, I can't use this type of loop, we can't do this. We can't do that. We can't do this. Right. It's not just what you can't do. Like, it's a discussion. Like, that other person might also not be able to do things or may you know this.
Libby Sinback:
And to be clear, we also talk about what we want to do as well. Like you said, one of the t in stars is turn ons and also there's relationship intentions. What am I hoping this is going to turn into? All of that, I think is also, like, what you want is so important. And I think, like you were saying, like, just thinking about it as a disclosure. Hey, here's my status versus. Let's talk about what we're going to do here and why we're going to do it and what we're excited about and what we might need to put in place to make it possible.
Courtney:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Like, that's. That's hot.
Courtney:
Yeah. It's so important to be able to have that conversation for yourself. Right. Because I think elevator pitch. We think I have to say these things. Let me get it out there.
Libby Sinback:
Right? Yeah.
Courtney:
Whereas if we approach you with curiosity and exploration among ourselves and partners, it can be sexy, it can be fun, it can be playful. Right. And it can be something that helps get in the mood and create this foundation for safety in the relationship because of that communication.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. I love that. I mean, I'm also just thinking, you know, like you were saying before, like, there are all these other reasons, all these other things we were going to have to talk about if you're going to, whether you're going to be in a relationship or whether you're going to be sexy with them. Like, there's all kinds of things you need to negotiate and figure out and discuss and. And also checking in with yourself, like, do I want this? You know, sometimes if you're getting so hung up on, is this person going to reject me because of this thing, you might not be thinking about how do I feel about them? You know?
Courtney:
Yes. And we can miss out on that. In the whole, I have herpes. And then you kind of recoil and you wait on their response. Right. What we don't understand is people generally have three responses, and of the three responses, two of them are generally a yes. So you've got your person who you tell them you're going to have herpes. They might say, no, thanks.
Courtney:
You have your other person who's going to say, tell me more. I'm curious. Which is a sign of interest, because they might want to get to know you more and then decide, okay, well, I like this person more than I don't want to accept the risks of potentially being exposed to herpes. And then you got me too. Like, I think that that's the last thing people expect is to hear from someone. They also have herpes. And my personal experience, I think that I've heard more people, after I disclose, tell me that they had herpes than have told me, no, thanks. In fact, that is what the numbers have been I might have experienced, because we remember the rejections way more than anything else.
Courtney:
You know, there.
Libby Sinback:
Of course we do.
Courtney:
You know, or three blatant rejections, like in person, online. I've made a point of when I was dating actively online, putting my status out there, because it comes up so quickly for me, being open about it. It's like HSBC two, and the reactions from people are kind of all over the place. Right. Some people don't read profiles. Some people are like, oh, it's type two, not type one. Some people are more concerned about the location, but there's a variety of things that people just generally, you have to accept what a person's risk tolerance is. You know, there's.
Courtney:
I completely respect that. But also I do acknowledge that the misinformation, the inconsistency and inaccuracy of representation of what it is like to live with this virus really doesn't do us any justice when it comes to dating people who are unfamiliar or uneducated about this.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that there are. There are people who are gonna be a no just because they don't know enough about it to make an informed decision. And like you said, maybe they just don't want to have to confront whatever's underneath, having to confront that for them.
Courtney:
Yeah. Or, you know, they just don't know enough about you yet. Because how many times do we, you know, maybe go on a date, disclose something that a person's like, well, I don't really know you to have an opinion about, you know, that. Or like, if I were to just meet someone and before asking them, that would go, hey, you know, I like you. I think you're cute. Oh, my God. I think you're cute, too. Okay, I have herpes, right? Like all things.
Courtney:
It's cute and they have herpes. Okay. I don't want herpes more than I want to be with somebody who's cute.
Libby Sinback:
Well, no. So are you saying there then, that it's good to wait a little while to disclose or. I guess I'm. What do you think about that?
Courtney:
That's a great question. So the time to have this discussion or discussion.
Libby Sinback:
Thank you.
Courtney:
Yeah, no problem. The best time to have this discussion is typically when conversations go from being, you know, what do I like sexually? What do you like sexually? What experiences have we had? What experience are we open to so when it becomes about each other? Because now when I say what I see myself doing with you and vice versa, we're creating expectations, right? So at this point, we're still getting to know each other, right? But now the sex conversation is coming together. And if the expectations are not set and co created for us to continue to decide what this looks like together, we kind of get further apart and expectations become completely different because one person might be imagining not wearing barriers, this happening a lot sooner than later, not anticipating a conversation about, you know, hey, I have herpes. Here's some things to know. And you knowing that you need to have that conversation might be escaping or avoiding the conversation because you're just enjoying this and you might fear, you know, the rejection. But it's best to, when the conversation goes to what sex is going to look like with each other, go ahead and initiate that conversation. It can be, hey, you know, I like where things are going. You know, I see myself doing some of these things that we talked about liking with each other.
Courtney:
So let's have a conversation, you know, I want to know, you know, what are you looking for? I'm looking for something short term. You know, just casual right now. What about you? And if the other person's looking for something more long term, this is where you make a decision. The incompatibility is right there in your face, right? So I want to entertain that or walk away. And if it's, you know, both of you are willing to move forward. There. Checkbox. Now we can talk about, you know, safety, right? So I use the example because people don't generally think about this, but as someone who also dates outside my rates, there's a level of social awareness that I need for my non black partners to have.
Courtney:
And, like, we cannot raise our voices at each other. I don't care how excited we are. Right. Like, the optics of a black man, especially, like, for me being as big as I am, like, I look very for me with my non black partner, if someone sees us being excited, right. It may just sound like loud black man, small white woman in altogether, yelling. I need for whoever I'm with to understand that social dynamic and also to be able to, like, understand the dynamics of what spaces we enter. So if we're in predominantly colored or black spaces, or if we're in mostly white spaces, there's optics there. There are going to be things that come with that.
Courtney:
So safety for me, doesn't just look like I need.
Libby Sinback:
Not just sexual safety.
Courtney:
Yes.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, totally.
Courtney:
And the sexual safety comes in with the second s for sexual health. Talking about that, but physical, cultural, social, emotional safety.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, so this is where if you've had a, you know, a sexual assault in your past, that might be a time to bring that up. And just, like, letting people know what maybe your triggers are, would that be a place where that would come up to you around safety?
Courtney:
That can. I think that if you don't want to go that deep, because I know a lot of people don't want to, you know, divulge such a vulnerable thing that can come up with avoids. And you don't have to say that there was sexual assault. You can just say, this position is not for me.
Libby Sinback:
It's not good for me. Yeah.
Courtney:
So we can go into the turn ons and avoids. I think these two things kind of go.
Libby Sinback:
Although I guess safety could also be about outness. Like, if you're polyamorous and you don't want people to, like, certain people to know, like, so you would. May you maybe say, like, you know, this part of town, my kids teacher lives there, and so we can't hold hands and make out in that part of town. Like, I could see that being part of safety.
Courtney:
Yes, that. Yeah, like, the social safety. Right. Public. Here's how we engage with each other. The t and the a turn ons, avoids. These are kind of, like, where your boundaries are. So it's pleasurable for you to be touched in the.
Courtney:
This way. It's pleasurable for you to be talked to this way. Right. These are turn off. And then when we get into the avoids, that can be where you say how you don't want to be talked to, how you don't want to be touched, and you don't have to go into and elaborate why. Right.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Courtney:
And we can just leave it there. And if there's green flags here, green check marks, because you're in agreeance with that, then that's a sign that you're safe enough to move forward with the conversation. So we've covered relationship intention, safety, turn ons, avoids, and that wasn't even in order. This is like a fluid conversation. It doesn't have to be mechanical. And then into sexual health. Right. So now it's all right.
Courtney:
I get tested this often between partners. I'm tested for these things, these sites, because I do these sex acts. What about you? And then here's give them the opportunity to say they're clean. Right. Or they'll share their safety, their testing, routine, practices. They'll share. Oh, yeah. I can test it every so often.
Courtney:
I typically wear condoms with partner, new partners. Especially I like to not wear condoms with partners that I've been in a relationship for a while with or whatever. Right, whatever.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Courtney:
Birth control methods, pregnancy prevention and things like that. But here's a great time to share. Like, yeah, I got tested. Last time I was tested was this time. I still tested.
Libby Sinback:
And I like what you said about, like, not only what you get tested for, but like, where. Because there are certain places, like, there's a swab. If you don't swab the back of your throat, you could have this. If you're not swabbing in the local place where the infection is, you might be missing some things. So I appreciate you mentioning that too.
Courtney:
Listen, if you slobbing, you should be swabbing. We can just.
Libby Sinback:
Right, yeah.
Courtney:
You licking, you need to be sticking that Q tip in the back of your throat too. So that's a good way to.
Libby Sinback:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Courtney:
So, yeah, just navigating that conversation and understanding that it's not a disclosure, it's a discussion, and it's an invitation for, you know, two or more people to have this conversation in a way that.
Libby Sinback:
And it's encompassing a whole, like a whole cornucopia of things that would go into whether you want to pursue anything sexual with this person. Exactly. Because like you said, it's not just about like an STI or whether you want to be exposed to that STi or not. It's also about, you know, am I. Are we compatible to do this thing or not? Are we both into it?
Courtney:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And I think. I think, again, to just kind of loop back to that scarcity mindset. I think a thing. I mean, I'm just picturing this, and I've known people. I've even been there myself, where someone will disclose something to me. And it's not an STI or anything like that, but just something that I'm like, what you were saying about they're looking for a longer term relationship. Maybe I'm looking for something more casual. Like you said, that incompatibility is right in your face, and still someone says, well, that's fine, you know, and they don't.
Libby Sinback:
They just go ahead anyway, even though they're not okay with it.
Courtney:
Yeah, that happens quite often. And it's not exclusively in relation to sexual health. Right. And then we look up, we're in these long term relationships, and we don't recognize ourselves because our identity has now become attached to somebody that we weren't even compatible with at all. And we're with someone that we didn't see ourselves with. I mean, and it works out sometimes where you like the person that you've become in relation to this person. And now, like, here you are, and you're like, wait, I didn't. I didn't expect to be here, but I like it.
Courtney:
Right. Sometimes surprised. But other times, like, if you know your stars and you know who you are and you know that, you know this thing is a deal breaker for you, then, yeah. It's in your best interest to honor what your values are well.
Libby Sinback:
And what you're really looking for. You know, what you're. What you're. What you're. I don't want to say goals, because that sounds not right to me, but you know what I'm saying? Like, what you're hoping for. But it's interesting, actually, as I'm thinking about this, too, just how often we end up in incompatible situations just because we haven't talked about it, because we don't want to put out the risk that there's an incompatibility. But then that puts us in those places where we're in a situation where there's so many incompatibilities, we just never got clear on. What, like what you said, we never got clear on what we wanted, and then we never were willing to put that out there and invite the other person to put that out there, too, until we were already 20 steps in to the relationship or the connection.
Libby Sinback:
And so it seems like there's having to put things forward and really think about what you really want is potentially a huge inoculation against that. You know, really getting, giving you the opportunity to, like I said, think about what you want. Not instead of just worrying about sharing, just like disclosing a diagnosis and then worrying about rejection, like you said. Yeah, I love it, I love it, I love it. I wanted to ask you because you've hinted at this a couple of times about like just languaging that you use because I've noticed that there's certain languaging that you don't use that is very common. And we've already talked about, like, clean and dirty. And I guess I wanted to ask you like, if, if you were speaking to someone who doesn't have herpes and who wants to be a supportive friend or a supportive partner or just a supportive community member in the world and like, are there, what are the things that they can do, including language changes, to be a supportive person for someone with HSV?
Courtney:
Yeah, I think just with anything that someone tells you that's like personal information or might have been hard to bring up or potentially revisiting a traumatic experience, the best thing that you can do is invite gratitude and curiosity into that. So thank you for telling me. How can I support you? What does that mean for you? That must have been hard. Like, do you want to talk about it? Right. Meeting them with statements like this to match the tone that they're at because someone going, oh, I have herpes. You know, you can. Oh, thanks for telling me that. Seems like you're okay with that.
Courtney:
Like I don't know much about it. Like what can you tell me? Versus I have herpes and crying. Like, these are two different responses that gratitude and curiosity just matching the tone. You can't go wrong with that. Right. So I want to make sure that I answer your question. That's like how to meet someone who discloses their stat, but even like, just.
Libby Sinback:
Changing how you talk about it so that you're not carrying the stigma forward in your language, in how you are talking about your own sexuality, stuff like that. Because, I mean, I heard you even talk about, like, not describing barriers as protection.
Courtney:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And I just, I thought that was really interesting.
Courtney:
Yeah. So the violence in communication, I talk about stigma free language versus trauma, informed language. Trauma very much avoids triggering the person. But when we're talking about stigma free, like when my healthcare provider is talking to me about having herpes. Right. Like, I am someone living with herpes. I am someone navigating stigma. So the triggers are probably more likely to even be activated.
Courtney:
So you have to meet me where I'm at in being activated. And the easiest way to do that is to first come to a workshop where we talk about, about stigma minimization. But some quick tips right off the bat are to not talk about ending stigma, breaking stigma, destroying stigma. We just want to minimize its impact and we make it smaller by looking at the truth and reality of it. So we don't need to put this not this violent language in association with stigma. And we also just, when we are engaging with someone who is experiencing stigma, we have to meet them there. We have to engage with this actively, potentially triggered person and speak to them in a way that is empowering or neutral, but not in a way that's like, oh, I'm so sorry, like this for you, right? We're people who might have been navigating this for however much time we have been. But there's no avoiding the trigger, there's no avoiding, um, activating a person who's living with herpes when talking to us about herpes.
Courtney:
So it's just a matter of understanding that and what that looks like from the lived experiences of people who have herpes.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, and you said something, you said quite a bit about, like, just how healthcare providers, like, can influence that stigma. And it sounds like a big way that they can help is get rid of the violent language and just speak about this neutrally and straightforward and tell as much of the truth as they can. I don't know what else. What else is can health care providers do?
Courtney:
Yeah, healthcare providers just understanding that the delivery of a diagnosis is the initial touch point of stigma as well as, you know, STD prevention. STI prevention. And I say that because how someone delivers a diagnosis influences not only how a person goes on to disclose, but even if they go on to disclose their herpes status or have that disclose. So if you're someone who is saying, you know, oh, don't worry about it, just wear condoms, you don't have to tell anyone. Which this is surprisingly something that a lot of healthcare providers do. And this is really an avoidance of addressing the emotions that have to come up with this, because when someone's diagnosed and they hear this for the first time, it can be life altering. It's definitely mood like. I can say that for sure.
Courtney:
But we have to be willing and able to understand that the empowerment, the educational piece is important, and healthcare providers may not have the time to provide the emotional support or the mental health support. So I'm working actively to get something positive for positive people as a resource into healthcare settings so that there are trainings for healthcare providers to be able to facilitate these conversations as best they can and also offer a resource, because a lot of people just didn't get the resources that they needed until after looking for however long and then eventually maybe stumbling across something positive for positive people. And one thing that I do want to say is, I don't want to make it sound like everybody who has herpes is struggling. Right.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Courtney:
I might hear from the minority of people who are living with herpes, like, let's say 85% of people are okay and we have no reason to hear from them because they're in their relationships, they're managing their symptoms. They don't know that they have herpes or it's just not an issue in their life. They've got something else going on that's a bigger deal. And I think that all of us do have something else going on that's a big deal. That stigma doesn't deserve to have our attention diverted from that bigger picture thing. So the people that I'm hearing from are at the lowest points of dealing with stigma. These are people who are talking about suicide ideation. These are people who are depressed or navigating mental health struggles.
Libby Sinback:
So, yeah. Yeah.
Courtney:
I just don't want to make it sound like everybody with herpes is miserable or living this terrible life.
Libby Sinback:
Right. No, you're getting. You're hearing from the people who are actively struggling, who actively need help.
Courtney:
Yes.
Libby Sinback:
And I guess I also want to name herpes is pretty common. I mean, I know the statistics are kind of like a little all over the place, but, like, what do you. I mean, like, what is your awareness of how many folks are out there with HSV one and HSV two? Which, incidentally, you can have HSV one on your face mouth area, and you can also have HSV two on your. Any mucus membrane. And you can also have HSV one on your genitals. And you can. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know, like, how distinct.
Libby Sinback:
I mean, I know that they're genetically distinct. Like, you can test for one, you can test for another. But I guess I'm wondering, like, how common are both? Because the senses I get very common.
Courtney:
Yeah. So we are seeing that more genital HSV one cases are on the rise just because more people who grow up with cold sores become adults don't know that their cold sores are herpes and then perform oral sex on partners, give them genital herpes, and then this cycle continues. Right?
Libby Sinback:
Continues.
Courtney:
So as far as statistics go, number wise, I don't touch that because there's. When I got my diagnosis, I was given a pamphlet that showed me one in six, one in five, one in four, one in three, one and two. And it was the language that was so intermingled between oral HSV two, genital HSV two, oral HSV one, genital HSV one, and then herpes genitally or herpes orally. So the statistics, you know, it didn't mean anything to me because it didn't tell me who I knew who had herpes. It just tells me the population. You're telling me all people have herpes. I don't know any of these people. So it doesn't mean anything to me.
Courtney:
When it comes to the statistics, though, what I find is that we want to look at transmission rates and I think that people look for that to be able to make a partner feel more comfortable about lowering the risk. Right. But even if you get the transmission rate down to 1%, what does that 1% transmission rate look like? There's no communication about that.
Libby Sinback:
Right. Does that mean on your hundredth time that you had sex, like, then that's going to be like, if you're in a long term relationship, is that going to be the time that you're going to get, like, what does that mean? It's such a good point.
Courtney:
Yeah. And so on the data tab of the something positive for positive people website, there is a statistic that shows how many people have taken a survey who have been in a discordant relationship with a partner who tested negative or did not have any symptoms if they knowingly passed herpes onto a partner who didn't have herpes. And 70 something percent of people said, no, they have not passed. I think that that is something that's more of interest to a person who doesn't have herpes, because if you give me statistics, everything is going to say you, I might get herpes from you. There is nothing that gives me the information I want which says that it's possible that we won't. But what the specific statistics shows is that there are people who have loving, discordant relationships where one person doesn't get herpes from the other.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's if you're educated about it. Right. The greater likelihood that that is going to be the outcome.
Courtney:
Yes, yes. And that's a big piece. And, of course, taking care of your body, managing your stress. I would highly recommend yoga, in fact.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So, obviously you highly recommend yoga. You've gone deep into yoga. And. And we were talking a little bit before about how, like, one of the best ways that you can, you know, make sure you don't give your partner herpes if that's not something they want or that's something they're worried about, is to be really acquainted with your own body. And I'm imagining yoga really supports that. But I guess I'm wondering if you could say a little bit more about your interest in yoga and how that connects to her piece.
Courtney:
Yeah. So when I first was diagnosed in 2013, I looked up the different ways of minimizing transmission and having outbreaks and exercise, nutrition and stress, which I want to name.
Libby Sinback:
Like, I just want to name an insert here for anybody who doesn't have HSV. Like, they are uncomfortable. I mean, depending on it can be very. From person to person, but, like, you know, an outbreak for some people, it's like, it's so varying. Right. But for some people, it's. I know that it's, like, not a big deal at all. And for some people, it's really.
Libby Sinback:
It's really uncomfortable. So I guess I just want to insert that there. But. So you wanted to minimize because I guess we. I don't want to just think about minimizing outbreaks so that you don't transmit it. I can understand minimizing outbreaks just for your own comfort and your own body.
Courtney:
Yeah. You know, most people coming into this are like, how do I not give this to somebody? And it comes up enough for it to be a thing. People want to not talk about it. So if there was that they can present that says, if we do this, we can have sex without me giving you herpes, a lot of people wouldn't say anything, and that's.
Libby Sinback:
Right. Right. Yeah. They just don't want to have to talk about it.
Courtney:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
It's.
Courtney:
Again, it's the avoidance of rejection exclusively. It's the avoidance of the emotions and the vulnerability there. Right.
Libby Sinback:
Which we highly recommend you do coming.
Courtney:
From a conversation between two demisexual people. Right. Like, sure. More just physical wham, bam, thank you, and move on. Like, that is repulsive to some people. I would say that, you know, going into it, thinking about the other person, a lot of people genuinely care for their partners, but also we kind of get lost in the idea that, you know, like, what if they have something that they should be disclosing? Like, again, I told you, most of the people that I've told that I have herpes have gone on to say I have it too. And it's like, when you gonna tell?
Libby Sinback:
When were you gonna tell me?
Courtney:
So the, my.
Libby Sinback:
So back to yoga. Back to yoga.
Courtney:
Yes. My journey into yoga started with just how can I not have symptoms? How can I lower the possibility of transmitting this to somebody else? And stress management continued to bring up yoga. And so I started to practice yoga. I've been sticking with it for, well, since my diagnosis. And I, my yoga teacher certification, 2020, 2021. I did a 200 hours and then a 300 hours right after that. And what I started to do was just bring that into the podcast, bring that into the support offerings. And now I teach yoga with an intention of utilizing it as an emotional support tool.
Courtney:
So when I teach, I use Doctor David R. Hawkins, as I mentioned earlier, the letting go techniques from his book letting go, and just really talk about the various emotions that a person experiences with the herpes diagnosis and how it relates to stigma and how we can begin to get out of that place of like, apathy and depression and when we're mad, use that energy of anger to work ourselves up through courage and hopefulness, to acceptance, and then, you know, wherever it is that we want to get to, but just supporting people in not attaching to their identity in relation to herpes and herpes. Stigma.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I feel so grateful that you're doing that work. And, and I just imagine you've helped a lot of people, and I think even in this conversation, you probably helped a lot of people with what you've shared here today. And I just really want to appreciate you.
Courtney:
Thank you so much, Libby. I appreciate that.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So if people want more from you, Courtney, how can they find you? Tell. Tell all the things about what you're up to.
Courtney:
Well, I'd strongly encourage people to subscribe to the monthly newsletter. I just sent out one monthly newsletter. I'm very much over social media. There's a lot of just censorship and silencing and, you know, you put a lot into making a post and messaging with it and nobody sees it. So if you're subscribed to the newsletter, you'll get all of the information. Upcoming workshops. I'm working to actively host in person events. By the time this comes out, I'll either be in New York City or like, permanently, or I'll be moving on my way out there to New York city.
Courtney:
And I plan to do a lot more community based events that are going to be in person with virtual options. So I'm encouraging people to one, subscribe to the monthly newsletter. It's just monthly. And also subscribe to the website, because with the tickets and the events, there's going to be offerings for people who are members of something positive, for positive people in the community that, you know, other people are going to have to just pay for. And the price difference is significant enough to where it makes sense to just become a member. So I'll just drop that there. And it's.
Libby Sinback:
Is it an online community where people can connect to each other?
Courtney:
People don't want that. Like, it has to be.
Libby Sinback:
Not yet. Okay.
Courtney:
Yeah, like, people there. I have support groups. Like, there's virtual groups that exist. Facebook, Fetlife group. And I created a Reddit, but I.
Libby Sinback:
Think that and your meeting virtually.
Courtney:
Yes. Well, those groups are like, I'll put it out there. And then I still get messages from people that are like, hey, how do I disclose herpes? I'm like, we just had this workshop that I've told everybody about, and I'm really encouraging people to come to these events because, like, people feel great about talking to me one on one. If you picture, like, a spider in a web, like, that's me. And people will communicate one thread directly between myself and them. And I would like to, ideally, not be in the center of that and have this community setting where we can comfortably engage with one another. And that's where the healing collectively is going to take place, when people can find something positive for positive people, community, and not courtney.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Courtney:
Like, I'll be here for as long as I can, and as long as, you know, I need to be here. But the real impact is gonna come when we're able to just heal in community.
Libby Sinback:
I totally agree.
Courtney:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So, so people can still reach out to you for one on one support? Yeah, if they need it.
Courtney:
One support. The events, the newsletter is gonna be the best way to get in contact with me.
Libby Sinback:
And you're doing a conference, right? A one day conference.
Courtney:
Conference, yeah. So the conference tab of spfpp.org, it's slash conferences. The conference.
Libby Sinback:
When is that?
Courtney:
It's May 23, from 10:00 a.m. To 04:00 p.m. Central time. And it's virtual. We're going to be delivering the latest survey information from people living with herpes who talk about their experience with symptoms, different treatments, the duration of their outbreaks, the frequency of outbreaks, closing their communication with healthcare providers, and, of course, their mental health. So we have three presenters. I'll be one of them. And then we have a documentary showing from the no Shame in this game film, which is a documentary about, you know, people's experiences with shame after their herpes diagnosis and what some of their insights and experiences have been.
Courtney:
We have a mental health professional. She's a sex therapist and psychotherapist, Nikita. She'll be speaking to the mental Health association effects of a herpes diagnosis, herpes stigma. We have Doctor Evelyne Dacre, who's a family physician and also maybe stars talk. She'll be presenting how healthcare providers can be more, like, I would say, sensitive to and stigma free when it comes to taking a sexual history. And then I'll be presenting the data analysis as well as speaking about potential solutions to what we're learning from people who are living with herpes so that we can, you know, help people a lot more effectively.
Libby Sinback:
That sounds amazing. That's amazing. And all the links to all that stuff will be in the show notes. So if you are interested in signing up for any of Courtney's amazing offerings, that is where you can find them.
Courtney:
Thank you.
Libby Sinback:
Courtney, thank you so much for being on the show. It has just been amazing talking to you. And like I said, I know that you've served a lot of people by being here today.
Courtney:
Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on, and thanks for touching base and reaching out.
