Relationship Diversity with Carrie Jeroslow
What happens when your relationship (or your life) doesn't look the way you thought it would or were told it was supposed to look? Libby talks with Carrie Jeroslow about how having a relationship diversity mindset may help you make peace and even embrace with how your life and love actually work for YOU.
Carrie's Website: https://www.carriejeroslow.com/
Transcript
Carrie Jeroslow:
And this is why I love relationship diversity. Because what it does is it just says, like, can you acknowledge the fantasy but also embrace who you really are? Just embrace who you really are and find the ok edness, which. That's not even a word, but I'm making it up. But the ok edness of just who I am. I am who I am.
Libby Sinback:
This week's episode is a conversation that I have with the beautiful and wonderful Carrie Jeroslow, who is a bestselling author, relationship diversity advocate, and she's passionate about bringing intentionality into intimate relationships by releasing the program of what we're taught relationships should be and shifting to what we really want them to be. And that's kind of what our conversation is about on so many levels.
Libby Sinback:
We talk about what happens when a relationship or a relationship style or a relationship dream doesn't turn out the way that you were expecting and how to move through that, how to make peace with it. And I'm just so excited to be having this conversation with her and to be able to share it with all of you. If you haven't checked out Carrie's podcast, the Relationship Diversity podcast, I encourage you to check out her show. I was on there just a few weeks back, and she's had an incredible lineup of guests as well as solo episodes. And the goal of Carrie's podcast is to explore and question and celebrate all aspects of relationship structure, diversity in an inclusive way. To give people permission to design their unique relationships from the knowledge and acceptance of their unique selves. I think that's all I'm going to say for now. I'm just going to let y'all listen to this amazing conversation with my friend, Carrie Jeroslow.
Libby Sinback:
Hi, Carrie.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Hi, Libby.
Libby Sinback:
Welcome to making polyamory work. I am so happy to have you here. So I've already introduced you to our listeners in the intro, but I'm wondering if you'd be willing to just say a little bit about yourself, the human, before we get started on our conversation today. Yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Thank you. I'm happy to be here with my friend talking to you. Yeah, I'm Carrie. I'm a big hearted person. I love to love, and I don't always get there. I'm a human, for sure, but I'm also a mom of two amazing kids. I have my own podcast called relationship Diversity podcast. I love speaking out about relationship diversity because so much of what I see out there is divisive.
Carrie Jeroslow:
If you're not doing something one way, then you're doing it wrong. And I just want to put more love in the world, more acceptance. And I think that starts with information. So that's why I'm super passionate about relationship diversity, because, you know, it's just, you're unique. There's billions of people in this world. How can my relationship be exactly like your relationship? We've had different pasts, and. And let's all just come together and say, let's relate in the best way that we can with love.
Libby Sinback:
I love that.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. I'll also say, okay, I'm more identifiers. I do identify as cisgender, and I am also polyamorous. And I own businesses and try to keep a lot of balls in the air. Sometimes they fall. Many times I keep them up in the air.
Libby Sinback:
Thanks for sharing that. I can relate to the balls in the air, for sure. As a mom and an owner of a business and a polyamorous person. So many balls in the air.
Carrie Jeroslow:
That's how we connected, right?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. One, in many ways. Yeah, for sure. So I love this term relationship diversity. I really appreciate that. Because when I'm thinking about even just within polyamory, right. I feel like even with polyamory, it's something that I've been kind of ringing my own bell about with that you step into. I'm interested in polyamory.
Libby Sinback:
I'm interested in non monogamy. And immediately there are people out there who will tell you you're doing it wrong.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. Yeah. And there's so much shame that, like, where can even people, and I understand this feeling of polyamory or swinging or anything non monogamous, having pushback to monogamy, but the shame is so unhealthy. And it leaves, I think, many people already have the feeling that we're just not good enough in whatever way. Maybe we feel good enough in our careers, but we don't feel good enough in our relationships. And the more shame that's put onto this is how it's supposed to be, I think the more damage that it does. And I found that as a mother, as a young mother, where I felt like I was such a bad mom because I wasn't doing it in the way that I thought I was going to do it before I started.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, man.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah, right. Did not do well. And it seriously affected my bond with my children or with my son at the time. And when I just threw all of that away and said, okay, I'm not doing it like everyone else, but I know that I have strengths. I know that I have ways that I'm good at or I'm enjoying parenthood. And when I stopped and really focused on that, I started loving motherhood. I started loving parenting. So that was when I thought, well, I can bring this to relationships, too, this exact same idea.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, I love that. I love that you brought in parenting right away, because when I think about the parent child relationship, exactly what you said, I had that same feeling of a picture of what it was going to look like and how it was going to be partly based on how I was raised and both how that was good and how I wanted to repeat that and how I wanted it to be different. Right.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Definitely.
Libby Sinback:
And then also what all the books, I'd read so many books before my child was even out in the world, out of my body that I just really had, this is the way I'm going to parent. This is the type of mom I'm going to be. This is the type of kid I'm going to have. None of that happened the way that I thought. And I think that there is such a corollary to that with, I mean, obviously those of us who are showing up into relationships that are not monogamous when we were raised, that that is what theyre supposed to look like, already have to reckon with, oh, this isnt what I thought it was going to be. And then we maybe even step into non monogamy and were looking at Instagram and what people are putting on Instagram as their performance of what their relationship is, which is probably not the reality. Or were reading it in the New York Times or were. I mean, there's not a lot of popular culture examples of it going well or what it really looks like.
Libby Sinback:
But so, you know, part of it is we're looking for examples of it going well, but then when we see an example of it going well and then we start trying it on for ourselves and it's not what we were thinking either. And it's really, really hard, I think. Yeah. To hold on to. Is this working for me alongside? This isn't what I was prepared for or what I thought it was going to look like.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Exactly. Yeah. And so this is where I learned information is really good, but then how can I apply it to me? Because going back to that parenting thing, I realized that, one, I had a super spirited son, and all my other friends kids were mellow. I didn't even know they slept, just that they slept. And then my husband worked a job and was going to school. I was alone with my child. I had no family. So I had to say, like, that is not my life, that is not my child, that is not me as a mom.
Carrie Jeroslow:
So who am I? And I think that that also translated or extended into my two kids and how my two kids are really different, which directly correlates to different partners. My two partners are very different. Oh, gosh.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Different, right. And so I show up differently. They, I think, bring out different parts of who I am, the totality of who I am. And so we have different experiences together, and they fulfill different needs, and I think that's really okay. That really works for us.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Just like my kids have different needs and I show up differently for them.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, and actually, I'm loving this correlate again, this comparison between kids being different and wanting to relate to you differently and wanting to do different things with you and you wanting to do different things with them. And, oh, my God, I mean, like, my kids won't even sit down and eat the same meal half the time, more than half the time, because they have totally different preferences. And I think, you know, again, going back to, like, what we think polyamory might look like when we are signing up for it, I think a really common thing that people hope for that doesn't always work out is that everybody in your polycule is going to get along and that everybody's going to like each other because they all like you or they all have people in common. Like, I can just say that there are so many ways in which that didn't work out for me. And I remember thinking, oh, I must be doing something wrong. There must be something again, it's always like, if it doesn't look the way I was hoping that it would look, that I've seen it look, then there must be something that I need to fix so that it looks the way that I want it to look. And so I did a lot of learning, like, how can I be better? What are the different ways I need to relate to different people? There's a lot of things that I tried to figure out to try to facilitate everybody getting along, and, of course, that I didn't do a lot of that, to be clear, because one of the things I learned when I started looking into it is, oh, everybody doesn't have to get along, and that's really normal, actually. And so I actually learned how to pretty quickly back off and just make do with what reality was, which is that some of my partners get along really well.
Libby Sinback:
I mean, two of them ended up in a relationship with each other, so, like, that happened. But then others of my partners really didn't get along. I remember even having, like, a birthday party where all of my partners were at the party together. And I was like, this was, this was early on in all of the relationships that I'm currently in. And I was also in another one at the time, too. Like, I had this fantasy that it would, like, turn into kind of a sexy thing, you know, with everybody. And that didn't happen. It kind of happened, but it didn't happen the way that I thought, and it didn't happen in a way that ended up being good for anybody.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
And so I never really went there again and again, it's like the fantasy in your head, whether it's parenting, whether it's polyamory, whether it's marriage, often doesn't work out the way that you're thinking. And, yeah, I think that is something that I think we don't talk about enough, actually, is when. When the way you're hoping it works out doesn't work out the way you want it to. But then here you are. You're in these relationships, you're with these children, you're in this marriage, you've created this life, and then how do you move through it with, well, reality?
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. Well, you and I have talked a lot about grieving. There's got to be a grieving of it that I remember when I had planned this. I keep going back to mothering or parenting, but I had this vision in my head of, I'm going to have this total natural birth, and I'm going to just put my baby to my breast, and it's going to be so easy. And none of that happened. I labored for over 50 hours, transferred to the hospital, had an emergency c section. My child was not interested in breastfeeding. And there was a lot of.
Carrie Jeroslow:
From those books, there's a lot of fear about, oh, my God, my child is going to be stupid. And like, all of these fear mongering of, if you don't do it in this way, then, you know, your child won't be healthy or whatever. So I had to grieve that. Yeah, I really did. And it took me a while to grieve it. So I think that is the first step, is to just be okay with the feelings of it didn't turn out the way we wanted to. We wanted it to. And I think that's the same with relationships, too.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. You and I were actually just talking before we got on the recording about hoping and disappointment.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. That we have. We have a hope of how things are going to be. And again, sometimes we have a hope and it becomes a plan. Right. Like, we've suddenly, it stopped being a hope, but it's something we've begun to count on and just expect. And again, we have reason for it. Like with, you know, natural childbirth or unmedicated childbirth and, and, uh, you know, breastfeeding and all of that.
Libby Sinback:
There is a whole marketing campaign about how that's supposed to go and how easy it's going to be and how natural it is. And then for so many mothers, it doesn't work out that way. And then there is fear and shame, both. Something's going to be wrong with your kid that you didn't do it that way. And also, uh, you must have done something wrong if it went this way for you.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Sure. And shame every time I pulled out a bottle and, oh, God, yeah. You know, all of that, and I had the same exact thing with my polyamorous journey of just shame, of, I'm not doing it like I've read, and this is why I chew on a lot. The balance of getting information, but also not holding me to it if it doesn't resonate.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Can you give me an example of that, of how that's played out for you or just even, like, how you've heard it playing out for lots of other people like, that, that sharing, getting the information, because I do agree with you. Like, being educated is so important, and then it might not apply to you. Like, it just really might not apply to you. And somebody out there is going to strongly say that it should. Like, that's the other. And with parenting, it's true. And with polyamory, it's true. Like, people will put a flag in the sand and they will say, no, no, this, this thing is the correct thing, or this is the.
Libby Sinback:
The true holy grail or whatever. And I don't want people to be skeptical of every single thing that people are saying, because there are sometimes when you really do need to listen, but that discernment is so important. And I guess I'd love. Yeah. Can you share an example for you?
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. So I remember, you know, in the beginning of my polyamorous journey, this chapter, I was, you know, I have another partner that I've been with for four years, John, and my husband Louis, who I've been with for 17, 1819 years. And our polyamorous journey was, is. We're talking about it, but is hierarchical.
Libby Sinback:
Did you just say the dirty word? Hierarchy?
Carrie Jeroslow:
I did. And so many I've watched, you know, on instagram. It's not polyamory.
Libby Sinback:
If it's hierarchical or it's unethical. It's unethical.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Or it's unethical.
Libby Sinback:
Wait, before. Before you say more, I mean, can you describe what you mean by it's hierarchical for you? Because I feel like that word in and of itself means lots of different things to lots of different things.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Okay, so that's interesting that you bring that up, because just in the last maybe month, I've been wanting to pull that word apart and have been having conversations about. But what does that really mean? And I loved your episode about all the different relationships that we put in our relationships, because I think you can start there to really pull apart. Where are the relationships? What parts of the relationship is, and I don't even like the word primary. It's like I want different vocabulary, because where is the focus, right. In each of the relationships.
Libby Sinback:
I mean, the word. I can give you a word if you want, that I use.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Okay.
Libby Sinback:
Which is priorities. Okay, yeah, we can have priorities.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yes.
Libby Sinback:
Right. Like, and I think that there's one thing that I feel like is missing in the conversation. It shows up in the conversation about hierarchy, but it doesn't show up enough in the conversation about hierarchy is the distinction between hierarchy and priorities. Because hierarchy implies one person is, like, more important than everybody else, and they always get to pull rank. They have a rank. Right. They're the top. But I feel like, of course, it is natural to, when you have competing needs or desires, that you're going to have priorities, and those are personal to you.
Libby Sinback:
Those aren't something that's baked in stone or anything like that. It's. Did I just say baked in stone? I meant carved in stone.
Carrie Jeroslow:
I like that I say those kind of things all the time.
Libby Sinback:
But. But of course, there are times where you're going to go, no, this is the most important thing to me. And so I'm going to choose, if I have a choice to make, I'm going to choose the thing that's going to be the most important thing to me. And that might mean that something else, that something else that someone else might want might not get chosen. So, I guess. But I'll back up and let you define hierarchy for you.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. And, you know, I don't feel like Louis and I have ever been in the place where hierarchy is veto power. I mean, we just don't talk like that to each other. Everything is a conversation. Everything is. Well, let me tell you why this is important for me to go on an out of country trip with John or, you know, he. With his partner. I think like we.
Carrie Jeroslow:
So I guess in the beginning, when we were really looking at what hierarchy was, it was priorities. It was, well, we have a family together, and our kids are younger, and our family is everything to us. It's really important that we have a close knit family, that we are very involved in our children's lives, that our children's lives. And that's why we're business owners, because we want to be able to have the flexibility to be with them as much as possible. We have. Finances are commingled, and our life vision is commingled. And that doesn't mean that I don't have a life vision with my other partner, with John. That doesn't mean that that's not there, too.
Carrie Jeroslow:
So, again, there is. So hierarchy. I guess in the beginning was that, well, I have a life with this man, Lewis. I'm married to him. Our finances are commingled. We own businesses together, we have a family together, all of that. And that if my family needs me in a certain moment, then I am choosing that over maybe my relationship with John. I do feel that shifting, and that is just the pulling apart.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Of what? Hierarchy. I think we have these big words and we just slap it on and we. It really is begging for pulling apart.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I so agree with you.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. And it's like, why do we have to say hierarchy, then? Every single aspect of that relationship is hierarchical. You know, instead, let's look at, you know, different parts of it and see where priorities and needs lie.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and the other thing I don't like about the word hierarchy, and again, I want to say, also some people really do, are operating in sort of a more rigid. The word I want is competitive mindset around hierarchy. Like, there is a scarce set of resources available, relational resources available, and how they get divvied up. It needs to be that this person always gets the most like that. When I think about it like that, I don't love that. Because then there's scorekeeping, then there's a rigidity to it. And also there's this idea that there's a competitiveness rather than an interdependence to relationships. And when I think about my relationship landscape, and I use the word ecosystem a lot to describe it, and the reason why I use ecosystem a lot to describe rather than polycule or anything else like that is because I want to emphasize that interdependence.
Libby Sinback:
My partnership with my partner Tom, who is long distance, is very important to major parts of my mental health and wellbeing. And there are parts of me that nobody in the world gets but him. Like. And is that hierarchy because there are things that he has that no one else has? Is it hierarchy that I will never have children with him because I'm going to have children with my spouse, and I've had children with my spouse, I'm done having children? Is that hierarchy? Because that's unavailable and it's only available over here. I like to think that they're connected. They're interdependent. Like, the fact that I have children with my spouse and the fact that we have that caregiving relationship means that I have the freedom to have a non co parenting relationship with this other person. And the fact that this other person fulfills parts of me that no one else can fulfill, because we have such a unique alchemy with each other, means that I show up to the parts of my life where that isn't there, fulfilled and taken care of in ways that I need.
Libby Sinback:
And then that puts energy into the day to day life that I have. And then I'm able to bring that part of myself that has gotten filled up and infuse it into my family. And because I've been able to nourish it, it's like, if I imagine, like, the parts of me that Tom brings out more just because of his influence, because of who he is, means that I'm able to be, like, a more positive person, because I'm able to be more creative. I'm listening to music that he shared with me, which puts me in a good mood, and then I'm able to bring that into my family. Like, I don't think I would have loved Hamilton as much. For example, uh, if Tom wasn't obsessed with Hamilton, because I it just was really kind of a blip on my radar. But because he was obsessed with it, I listened to it, and I realized that I liked it. And then I wanted to bring it to my kids.
Libby Sinback:
And now my kids are, like, constantly singing Hamilton, which actually, you know, there are people in my house that don't love that and actually would maybe prefer.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Well, you can come over to my house and we can have a Hamilton concert, because my kids have gone through that phase. And, but I want to say that I, we've talked about this before, how I think our relationships, like your relationship with Tom, my relationship with John, they're similar in that way. And I love that I don't have kids with John because I do show up very differently. Yeah, I show up, and we have, we have less time together in terms of quantity. We have incredible quality that is just us in a bubble. And it does feed a part of me that is not fed in my relationship and my family, and it does affect it. I come home and I feel like I'm in. So, you know, I just feel so nourished.
Carrie Jeroslow:
And I do think that it really enhances my relationship with Lewis. And so I love that idea of ecosystem. It all does work together, and it all feels really different. But you and I are complex humans, and I can't expect any one person to feel all that I am.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and you can't fill all that someone else's, either. I mean, that's, that's another piece, right? Um, like, Louis, your part, your husband has another partner. My spouse has another partner, and I I'm partnered with that person as well. But, like, golly, you could not stack those relationships next to each other and compare them in any way. Like, my relationship with my other partner that I live with is, like, non sexual, and, um, I don't even know how to describe it. It really, it has its own life, and it's actually going through some significant transitions right now, which is a little tricky. And then my spouse's partnership with them is like, they like to watch goofy television together and share goofy memes with each other, and they have, like, all kinds of ways that they connect that, like, wouldn't work for me and don't. And don't.
Libby Sinback:
And that I, and, like, their relationship is just so very different from my relationship with either of them. And, and my spouse and I have talked so much about, you can't be a husband and a boyfriend. You actually can't be a husband and a boyfriend. I think that's, we've talked about that as sort of a grief, right. Because when you are initially partnering with somebody, you usually are, like, in that newer stage, there's a lot of building, there's a lot of excitement, there's a lot of freedom, and you're able to kind of be in that, in love nre feeling. But then when you start to build together, you build a life. You're building a household, you're building a financial structure. That's all a literal business.
Libby Sinback:
Like, even though it's, you know, it has input, you put your finances in, it has output, you're putting, you're doing domestic labor, you're making children, you're connected to your extended family, you know, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, all that stuff. And so, and you're doing holidays together, you're putting on productions, you know, so many different things. And that's just not the boyfriend and girlfriend experience anymore. It is, it is a family spousal relationship. And with that comes a bunch of shit.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. Day to day.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And, and that shit can sometimes take a real whack to your libido. Uh, it just takes a real, and even if your libido is there, your energy for that might not be. You also will have way more opportunities for friction. And so you sometimes have to prioritize certain type of compatibilities over others, which means you might work really hard at parenting well together, and you then you might be tired from parenting well together, and then you might not put energy into watching really great tv together or cultivating a hobby together. I don't know. There are just so many different, again, elements going back to those. It's not nine relationships in a marriage anymore.
Libby Sinback:
I think I'm now at eleven or something like that.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Are you?
Libby Sinback:
Oh, yeah. I have a whole worksheet that I've made about it where I came up with all these different vectors to think about. But I think that that difference between, like, life partner, spouse, co parent, which is a whole bunch of different relationships jammed together already. And I remember having to say to my husband at one point, like, I can't, you can't be the boyfriend too. Like, it's just not, it's not possible for me to do that while we're doing all this other stuff. And I feel really grateful that my husband actually looked at me and said, you know, I get it and I will take being your spouse if it means that I have to give up being your boyfriend. Like, that's actually okay with me. I will take that deal because I love being your spouse and I love raising children with you and I love this life that we've made.
Libby Sinback:
And it's okay that I don't get to be the boyfriend and, and then I get to have a boyfriend, which is cool. Yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Well, I think I've had similar conversations with Louis and I don't have enough perspective to make a conclusion, but I do have some perspective and I'm wondering if there are different chapters of life because I do have friends who have kids who are out of the house and that they always say and it is pretty much a similar story at the ages from birth to probably 16 1718. You're in it.
Libby Sinback:
Oh yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:
And when you're in it with your partner you're in it. And I know all the books say don't put your relationship on, you know, like make sure to prioritize your relationship. And I do think there is some truth to that. And my question is, is like because I already see a shift happening with my kids at ten and 15 than my kids were when they were your kids age and there is already a shift. Like just yesterday my husband and I went out for a date and we left the kids by themselves and you know, for a couple hours and we're able to do that now where we were not able to do that just a year ago. And so I just am curious as to what the evolution of the relationship will look like. And I do feel like I want to say that if someone is choosing quote unquote hierarchy, hierarchical polyamory and that is right for you and everyone is in agreement with it then there's nothing wrong with it.
Libby Sinback:
Sure.
Carrie Jeroslow:
To me as long as it's consensual and ethical and done in a way that is honoring. Now I never have had to deal with veto so I know that that comes in, in that discussion. I do think things should be a discussion, a conversation. But I just want to say that sometimes that's a better place to start than just jumping in and having everything, expecting everything to be equal and it not turning out that way.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and that's the thing is I think expecting it to be equal is completely unreasonable. That would be, I mean, I remember, and just as an example of how this can go in a totally different way, I remember when I started dating Drew, my husband, I had a couple of best friends that I'd been really close to for decades at the point that he and I met. And I told him I hope that you just don't expect that I'm going to follow the traditional monogamy script and kind of just forget all about my friends. When we're in a relationship they're important to me too. I will make life decisions with them in mind. I will probably still want to go on vacation with them sometimes. And this was because one of my close friends early on in our friendship, maybe like five years in, maybe a little bit longer, I don't know, she got her first serious boyfriend, and we had just recently gone on a vacation together, and then she got this serious boyfriend, and then she communicated to me, yeah, I don't think that I'm going to go on a vacation with you again because. And again, this was early on because I'm going to reserve that for my romantic partner now.
Libby Sinback:
That's just what you do. And I was like, oh, well, I don't agree with that, but okay. And I don't think that in any way, shape, or form would she do that now. I think she grew out of that. But I think there's this talk about hierarchy, right? There's the hierarchy of romantic relationships over friendships. And I was very clear from the beginning that I was not participating in that hierarchy of, like, you're always going to be the priority for vacations. I mean, I'm just thinking, like, now, thinking about what you're talking about, like, to expect a new partner that you just met that you're just starting to build a relationship with, for them to have the same level of priority in your life, any of the people that you've been with for ten times as long, that seems really wackadoo to me. Like, that seems wackadoo.
Libby Sinback:
But I think where hierarchy gets yuck, and I talk about this on another episode, is when you have specifically railed things off that are just never, ever. You cannot participate in this part of my life ever and again. Even then, I've made clear to myself that I'm not going to have any more children with anybody else. So that is railed off. But that's railed off because it's like, I don't want any more children. And if you are a person and you date me and you want children, you should find someone else to make those children with you because they're just not available with me. And that's more of a boundary. But if my partner had said, you cannot have children with anybody else.
Libby Sinback:
You can only have children with me, that might. I mean, again, I think that's a decision you can make together, but that's where it can get a little yuck. Like, you cannot meet this person that you're dating, cannot meet your parents, that that's not allowed, or this person that you are dating can never spend a holiday with us. Those are the kind of rails that kind of are designed to keep hierarchy in place that I think can be yuck. Yeah, but in terms of, like, thinking about, like, I only have so much time in my life, and my family's really important to me. And I am not going to make a decision that's going to meet your needs if it's going to screw over my family. I think that's just priorities. Like, it would be the same thing if you have a really important job and you need to go on a work trip and that's a time when your partner would really like to go on a vacation with you and you're like, well, I'm sorry, I have this work trip and that takes priority.
Libby Sinback:
I don't see that as hierarchy.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. I mean, it's, again, I guess, personally, I've never had the experience of you can't do that. And there will be no discussion at all.
Libby Sinback:
I mean, that's a type of veto, right? It's not a veto of the whole relationship, but it's a veto of vectors of connection.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that it is a false sense of security that people are wanting from that veto.
Libby Sinback:
Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And even then, I guess so that we're not shaming anybody. I will say that to kind of go back to what you were saying earlier about when you're just starting out expecting everything to be equal or expecting to just dive right in and there's no guardrails at all. If you're new and you're building something and you're trying to open up a capacity for something more, it can be really disorienting and scary to just imagine any person that walks in the door and makes a connection with you is suddenly now going to be completely enmeshed and embedded in your life and your partner just has to accept whatever that is. Like, I can totally understand why that would be terrifying and really upsetting because that would be like saying, hey, I'm just going to pick a roommate and, you know, move them in the house. And whether you get along with them or not, whether you like them or not, whether they go along with your life or not, they're just going to be part of our lives now. And like, but isn't that, isn't that.
Carrie Jeroslow:
In some way another form of veto is not the right word, but it's still, I don't know, another form of, like, I am doing this and there's no discussion, there's no conversation, I guess. And to me, that's what makes relationships consensuals when there's conversation. And I'm not perfect, so I will not say that I am. I struggle with this, but I do think it's about talking about it and trying to get to what's underneath it. Because if you don't really look at what's underneath it. Then it becomes all of these rules. And, you know, to me, I'm just more of a free spirit. And if I get boxed in, that actually makes me really upset and mad and just, like, I want to break out.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. And so having conversations and understanding, and I'll always, and this is why I feel like we've done a pretty good job, although it's not been easy over the four years, but it's actually been super, super, super fulfilling, is because I always go inside and say, what's this about for me? What is this about for me? Instead of just saying, I don't want you to do this, I'll say, well, what is going on? I mean, that's how we started this whole chapter of polyamory was, Louis wanted to do it, I had done it before he wanted to. And I was like, I don't know how. I just, like, the kids are so young, I don't know who I am. I don't know how to do it. And then I just went inside and said, okay, what am I really scared about? Instead of just saying, I don't want to do it because I said that kind of long enough for as many years, I just said, like, okay, what is really going on? And then that internal work, I think, just really served me to evolve as a human, not even, like, as a person in relationship, just as a human. And has served us. When we're actually able to do that and go underneath the fear or the desire to want to veto something and we look at what's underneath it, we can grow and evolve, and we come out better on the other end.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and you can collaborate. Right. Because if you're not talking about, if you're not in an argument about solutions, if instead what you're in a real discussion about is competing needs and how things are going to work for you, that's a different, then that's a different type of conversation. And it's a conversation about care and everybody mattering instead of who's going to win and whose solution is going to be the answer.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Right. And I've been there. I mean, we have had the moments like that, and they just feel we come out of it and we feel gross. Just like that did not feel good.
Libby Sinback:
Well, to loop it back to parenting, right? We have a picture of what it's going to look like, and then we have all of these things that we're supposed to do as parents. And I remember, like, I, again, I read so many things. I was like, I'm going to nail this parenting thing. I just laugh at my younger self so hard. I'm just going to nail this. I'm going to do it perfectly. And then so many of the things I was told would, quote unquote, work or have a particular result with my children, just didn't. And then I was like, am I not doing them right or is there something wrong with my kid? And it turned out, you know, I've got two very neurodivergent children, and they're neurodivergent in different ways.
Libby Sinback:
And it turned out I'm neurodivergent. It turns out that probably goes all the way back into my family. So, like, I have this whole legacy of trying to navigate this different way of seeing the world and interacting with the world, and my parenting is the next iteration of that. And when I stopped getting focused on the strategy and why the strategy wasn't working or why I didn't have the answer, or why I was when I was trying to fit in a particular type of mold, but instead went, okay, who are these actual humans in front of me? What do I actually want my life to feel like? Not just look like, but feel like, yeah. And then I started to create, and I am not in the place where I love parenting. I'll just be honest with you. I'm gonna be honest with everybody on this podcast. I do not love parenting all the time.
Libby Sinback:
Sometimes I do. Yeah, I get that. But I am in. I am.
Carrie Jeroslow:
It's hard.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, my God.
Carrie Jeroslow:
It's the hardest thing I've ever done.
Libby Sinback:
And both my kids are very spirited and energetic, and I love them dearly. But, yeah, it is extremely hard. And. And I do still contend with when people interact with my kids, depending on the setting, some shame about it, not looking the way that I know they're expecting, that I expect of myself that I hoped for. And I have to kind of contend with the. I go quickly from shame to grief now, which is good. Like, I kind of go, okay, there's nothing actually wrong. So let's move out of the shame.
Libby Sinback:
Okay. There was a way that I hope this would look, and it's not looking that way. Okay. And then we go from grief to acceptance. Okay.
Carrie Jeroslow:
But then now what?
Libby Sinback:
Because, like, this is the reality that I live in. These are the people that I'm with. Now what? And I think that applies really beautifully to polyamory as well. Like, I would have, you know, I would have loved it if, for example, with my partner, with my long distance partner. Tom. I would have loved it if I could have gotten along with his spouse, and we could have all been really close. And we even all had this vision at one point of, like, all of us going on family vacations together with all of our kids. We were actually potted together, all eleven of us, for the pandemic.
Libby Sinback:
Wow. No, it was 13 of us. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, because, wow. We had a partner, and I had my mom. So there was a 13 person pod, two households, but 13 people, and we were all potted together. And, you know, we had this fantasy of it working, you know, but then all of the personalities just did not mesh, and there were a lot of competing needs and priorities, and. And so we had to.
Libby Sinback:
We had to honor ourselves and honor everybody in that situation. Sometimes honoring means saying, you know, this thing that is important to me, that I wanted, isn't happening. And, you know, and so I just want to name. There might be people listening who to kind of loop back to the hierarchy thing, who really wanted to be non hierarchical in some kind of way, or who wanted, like, more free flowing, more freedom, more flexibility, more just straight up autonomy to build relationships and let them grow as they. As they wanted, and instead had to make more intentional choices and had. And ran into places where there were competing needs and had to choose and didn't want to have to choose, but, like, had to face the reality of limited capacities, limited resources, or, like I said, competing needs when just facing reality versus the fantasy.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Definitely. The reality versus the fantasy. Oh, my gosh.
Libby Sinback:
I mean, that.
Carrie Jeroslow:
That has come into so many areas of my life, and going through that entire process that you just talked about and where you can bring fantasy, I don't know, like, when we talk about, like, fun, sexual things, you know, to, like, okay, I'm just going to let that be in the fantasy and be that. Be okay with that, but also be in the reality. So this idea of fantasy and reality is kind of woven in to a lot of conversations. And this is why I love relationship diversity, because what it does is it just says, can you acknowledge the fantasy, but also embrace who you really are? Just embrace who you really are and find the okayedness, which. That's not even a word, but I'm making it up.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, I think it's absolutely worked.
Carrie Jeroslow:
The okness of just who I am. I am who I am. I say, like, parenting, that I brought my kid up in the age of Pinterest parenting, and I was so not a Pinterest parent, and I shamed myself over and over again until I was like, you know what? I'm not the Pinterest parent, and that's okay.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, did you hear about the mom? She's an influencer about a lot of different things, but she's on TikTok, and she did this video about how she doesn't like to play make believe with her kids. Did you hear about this?
Carrie Jeroslow:
No.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, yeah. She said she doesn't play make believe or play dolls or anything like that with her kids. She lets them do that independently, and it went viral and people ripped her apart for not wanting to play with her kids. The thing is, she was like, it's not that I don't spend time with them. I just don't enjoy make believe play. Like, that is like ripping my fingernails out of my hands. So I'll bake with them, or we'll go on an adventure together, or we'll play. We'll kick a soccer ball around.
Libby Sinback:
I just don't want to play dolls with them. And I was like, that was such a beautiful. Just another example of relationship diversity, really, in the sense that, like, yes, if you love playing make believe, play make believe with your kids, if you want to do crafts and activities instead and you want to let make believe be something that belongs to them, do that.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yes.
Libby Sinback:
You know, and it's the same with, like, building these ecosystems that thrive in the way that works for everybody in it.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Exactly. And I will say to anyone out there listening that if you feel like you are judging yourself for a way, you are doing it, to just pull back from that fantasy or that real ig reel or someone's book that said that it has to be this way and go inward and just take some time, like, go on a walk or start to get to know what you really want, and then that's going to bring up so much stuff. Right. It's going to bring up probably a lot of childhood beliefs of being told we should be one way. And, you know, society saying a marriage should look like this, monogamy is the only way. I mean, when you start going into this, it is a continual unpacking of so much programming. And I know in, you know, I think I feel like I've done this. A lot of my life is questioned things, and I just kind of accepted that it's just not going to ever end, that it's just like, it's so, it's just so ingrained in so many different ways.
Carrie Jeroslow:
And if I, if I set myself up with saying, like, what's going to come at me now, then I'm not like, oh, my God, why haven't I figured this out? Right? There's very different ways to. To come to yourself.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:
And not shame yourself, but love yourself. And, like, okay, what's coming at me today? What do I get to look at today?
Libby Sinback:
And then, you know, I love that, too. As, like, seeing a curveball as an opportunity instead of seeing it as a sign that you're doing it wrong or a sign that you haven't figured it out yet or a sign that the world is all against you. Right, right. But instead, as a. My teacher Jules, actually put it this way. Recently on another podcast, she said, let me find out if I can handle this. Let me find out how I can, and then find new strength with it, too. And again, I want to just name that.
Libby Sinback:
There's a limit to that, too, because definitely, for me, I think I've always had that mindset, too, of, okay, what's going to come at me now? How can I take this other fucking opportunity for growth and, you know, turn lemons into lemon souffle or what have you? But, um. But also, I think it's okay sometimes to say no to those. Like, sometimes it could be. Sometimes the, what am I going to do with this thing? Comes at me now I'm going to move out of the way and let it go by. That's also an important part.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yes. And there is time for integration. Like, I don't want it all thrown at me nonstop. You know, I have my limits, too. It's like, okay, I processed. I've had a lot come at me, and I'm just going to take some time to integrate. And maybe six months later or a year later, if you want to throw something else at me, or it's a particularly hard time with businesses or kids or, you know, that I'm just like, I'm full. So, yes, I'm going to dodge that one for the time being because many times it comes back.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Not always, but many times it comes back. But I do think that if we can, for the most part, come to okayedness with ourselves and maybe even self love, maybe even loving who we are and the wacky weirdness and uniqueness of how we show up in the world, then maybe we'll be less apt to judge everyone else in the world and put that on everyone else. Like, this is the way I believe we do our work, to start bringing a different dynamic in the world. Because the more I accept, the more I accept myself, the less I'm going to be like, no, you should do it my way. I'm going to be like, hey, I get to do it my way. And I'm super fulfilled and happy because I'm doing it my way. You, I hope the same for you. I hope the very same for you.
Carrie Jeroslow:
I have not walked in your shoes. And I tell my kids this all the time. You can't judge someone because you don't walk in their shoes. Of course, I talk about, like, you know, compassion and kindness in the world, but I'm just saying, like, even someone who is mean to them, you have never walked a moment in their shoes, and you don't know. That does not mean you need to be with them, hang out with them, or be friends with them. But you will never know. Just like no one will ever know what it is to walk in your shoes or in my shoes.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think when I think about what you're saying there about diversity specifically, like, I hear just like, that diversity theme running through it. All right. If I'm not going to be judgmental toward myself, then I can accept the diversity within me, the diversity around me, the diverse opportunities that I have to relate to other people, and I can also accept the diversity of others. You know? And sometimes we may want other people to be different than they are. You know, we might want that. I definitely want that all the time.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Oh, yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And. And I. And I see that we could go through the same pattern of grief. We can go into shame, but in this case, we would be shaming the other person.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Right?
Libby Sinback:
So we're shaming. We go from shame. Then we can go to grief, then we can go to acceptance, and then we can go to, okay, well, now what then? Okay, now that I've accepted reality, now that I've gone through the grieving process, now, now what? And then that's where the creation part can happen, you know? And the creation part might be with another person that we are judging. I don't want to be part of that with you. I just want to move on. You're going to be over there, and I'm going to be over here, and we're going to have a nice little fence or a significant amount of distance between us, or there might be an opportunity to create something even just very small with someone that you don't otherwise blend with or mesh with or agree with. And. And I think about that all the time when I think about how we really build community, because we don't build community by everybody agreeing with each other, even within polyamorous community, even within radical left community, definitely not in activist communities.
Libby Sinback:
We don't build community through agreement. We build community through support, acceptance, compassion and creation. And we definitely don't build community through shame.
Carrie Jeroslow:
No.
Libby Sinback:
So I think you're onto something with. With diversity, like having a diversity mindset and inclusion.
Carrie Jeroslow:
I'll add to that as well.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. Because I think that's all we really, most people want is just to feel, like, seen and heard and like they belong. Yeah. And like they belong.
Libby Sinback:
And I think you can include someone without being close to them. I think you can be inclusive without necessarily saying you belong in all spaces, in all ways, in every part of my life.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Well, yeah. And how powerful I think it would be to say, I accept you for who you are and you be you.
Libby Sinback:
And you belong in this world.
Carrie Jeroslow:
You belong in this world. And we don't have to be in the same, you know, in the same space together. And then you can be free to be who you are without me saying, I want you to be different, you know? Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And then you drill that down to family level. You drill that down to relationship level and then you drill that down to you level. It seems like it all. It's this nice little pattern that just expands out.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Yeah. Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
I feel like this is where I want to leave it. Carrie, how does that feel to you?
Carrie Jeroslow:
It feels really good. You know, you and I could talk.
Libby Sinback:
For hours, and we will. We will another time. And, you know, when this. When the mood strikes us, you'll be back on my show, or I'll be back on your show. But for now, thanks for being here.
Carrie Jeroslow:
Thanks for having me. I love this. And I love you.
Libby Sinback:
And I love you, too.
