Nerding out on Compersion with Marie Thouin
What is compersion? Can you cultivate compersion in yourself and in your relationships? Libby invites Marie Thouin, PhD to discuss her research and book on this important and sometimes misunderstood topic in polyamory.
Transcript
Libby Sinback:
Hi, Marie. Welcome to making polyamory work.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Thank you so much for having me, Libby. I am so honored to be here because I love your podcast.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, thank you so much. I'm happy to have you here. And we are here to talk about conversion. And you have a new book coming out, and I can't wait to hear all about your research. But before we dive in, I guess I just wanted to ask you if you would just introduce yourself. I already introduced you in the intro, but I'd just love to hear a little bit about Marie the human.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Marie the human. Thank you. Well, let's see. I'm 39 years old. I live in the San Francisco Bay area. I've been here for about 21 or 22 years now. I'm originally from Quebec, Canada, and I just love life. I think the thing I'll say about Marie as a human is that I have this insatiable curiosity about the human condition, what it means to be here, what it means to be here together in relationship with one another, both kind of at the micro, individual, intimate relationship level and collectively.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And that's why I have gotten into the work that I do in terms of relationships. Really. What does it mean and how do we do it? How do we do it in order to create better world?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And that's one of the things I really enjoy about knowing you, is I feel that curiosity, I feel that hunger for learning all there is to know about life and love. And it's interesting because you have two kind of main branches of work that you do, right? You have the academic and the research side, which we'll talk about in a minute. But you also are a coach. Am I right that.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes. Yes, exactly. I'm a dating and relationship coach. Cool.
Libby Sinback:
So let's. Let's talk about compersion and your work there. But I might ask you some questions about this other branch of your work as well, if that's okay.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Oh, absolutely. I love talking about both. And they're very connected, of course.
Libby Sinback:
I was going to say, I bet they are. But let's start with, like, how you got into this. Like, how did you get into studying compersion on an academic level?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Well, I mean, I was always really uncomfortable with mononormativity. You know, that widespread assumption that monogamy should be the only way that we create romantic relationships, like, from a very young age, I just really thought that we should have the freedom to create relationships in the way that we see fit. And so I was intrigued by communities that create relationships that are outside of the norms and how this is something that is so stigmatized still in our society. So when I decided to study psychology in earnest and go for a PhD, I knew this was going to be my field of research. But then in 2014, I went to a conference called the Future of monogamy and non monogamy in Berkeley, California, and I encountered the word compersion for the first time.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, and real quick, let's define it so that people know what it means, because some people might know this word, but other people might be like, what? Compare what?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Totally. I know it's not in the dictionary yet, which is something I would love to help change.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, guess what?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
I've emailed them Miriam Webster a couple of times to ask them to include it, and they've said no so far, but, well, hopefully that will change soon, but shortly. Put compersion is sharing other people's joy and happiness. And if we go into a little bit more detail, I actually co authored a encyclopedia entry last year with Doctor Sharon Flicker, and we split it in three definitions because we thought that was necessary to really encompass what it means. Number one was the positive emotions and feelings that we feel with other people's happiness and successes. The second definition was the thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors that we might enact in response to other people's happiness and successes. So it doesn't have to be an emotion. It can also be thoughts and attitudes and behaviors. And that's really important in terms of polyamory and how we navigate relationships.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And then third was compersion in a more general sense, not just in the intimate relationship realm, but in general, sharing and participating in other people's good feelings and good experiences. So compersion, in a nutshell, being happy for other people, but it's a little bit more complex when we really look at it.
Libby Sinback:
Okay, and so you encountered this word compersion and it was new to you at the conference?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes, it was the first time I saw that word. And when I looked into what it meant, it's like this light bulb went on. I was like, ah, that is what I think love should be like or look like or mean. You know, I've been raised in a society that defined love in so many ways, and some of them include control and possessiveness and, you know, wanting people to act how we want them to act. Oh, I love you, and therefore I don't want you to do a, b, or c. And when I saw and understood the word compression, I was like, oh, that's how I want to feel. I love you, and therefore I want you to enjoy your life and find your own freedom. And even if it's not necessarily convenient for me, I still want to support you in that.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
So that was the light bulb moment that made me think, okay, I want to study this. And why is this not a widespread concept?
Libby Sinback:
Right? I mean, it's interesting because the word compersion was created by the carista commune, which was a commune in, like, the, what, the sixties and seventies. And they created that word out of practicing non monogamy. And it was specifically originally, wasn't it, like, the joy that you had from your lover, being with another lover? That was, that was sort of the beginning of that word. But as you said, the definition has expanded quite a bit from there. And it's, it's funny, because to me, like that, like what you're saying about that, like, it's a, it's just a way of loving people, being happy, that they're happy. It actually seems like that. That's a, that's not actually a new concept. Am I right about that?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
You're right. And actually, in Buddhism, there are four qualities of the enlightened person, or brahmavaharas, if I pronounce it correctly. And these are loving kindness, compassion, equanimity, and mudita, or sympathetic joy, which is very much equivalent to compersion and how we see it. And according to buddhist philosophy, it's the hardest of the four to really achieve, really, because it really requires that we dissolve the illusion of separation between ourselves and others. And that's very hard to do for the human being, for the human ego, for how we're wired with so much of that, you know, like, of course, we are separate in some way, and we're not from a spiritual lens, but that's a very, that's a big challenge spiritually.
Libby Sinback:
I love that, because when I hear that, I think that what we're doing there with Morita, am I saying it right? So with Morita, it's not just joy and other people's joy, but understanding that other people's joy isn't separate from our joy. Am I getting it right? Like that illusion that it's even not already, our joy is broken?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Exactly. Exactly. It's like stepping out of the zero sum mentality of more for you is less for me.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And actually stepping into a mindset where more for you is more for me.
Libby Sinback:
Yes, yes. Well, so that was like a light bulb moment for you, and then you were like, okay, so now let me go do academic research about it.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes.
Libby Sinback:
Is that, is it generally how you approach things that you're excited about learning, where you're like, I just, now I want to go super deep and dig in from, like, in a methodical, let me just find out everything about it kind of way.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes. That is how I roll. I intellectualize things first.
Libby Sinback:
How long have you been doing this research that is now culminated in book?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Well, it's been about a decade. I started my PhD in 2014 and started learning about compersion around that time. And then between 2014 and 2021, I was studying interviewing people, writing, you know, going through a lot of revision for my PhD dissertation. And then after I graduated in 2021, I started thinking about writing a book based on my dissertation. So I started shopping for the right publisher, and I think in 2022, I signed a deal with Roman and Littlefield, who, who have a series on relationship diversity. And so that felt like the right home for it. And I'm so blessed that I got to work with doctor Elizabeth Sheff and doctor Richard Sprott, who are the series editor for that. So it's been really great doing more research and more writing and just also enriching the book with my experience with my coaching clients, which I didn't really have.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
You know, like, back when I was doing my PhD, I was just starting to coach. So now I feel like my work and my writing about it is a lot more nuanced and mature.
Libby Sinback:
That's, that's, that's so cool. So this is, this is a very long time, like a decade of work and learning and process to birthing this book.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yeah. Yeah. It does feel like a birth.
Libby Sinback:
A very long gestation. So would you be willing to say a little bit more about your research methods? Like, how. How did you, like, how do you even research compersion? How do you do it?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
I just took.
Libby Sinback:
I can't picture it.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Okay. Yeah, let's get nerdy. I love that.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, let's get nerdy.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
So when something is not really well known yet, the best way to research something is qualitative research. So I didn't do a big survey. I actually took a small sample, about 20 people originally, and I, you know, it was a sample of non monogamous folks who had a lot of experience with compersion. And I asked them a lot of questions. We did in depth interviews, you know, maybe 90 minutes long interviews, and I asked them, what is conversion for you? How do you experience it? Do you feel it in your body? Is it thoughts? Is it an emotion? Is it a behavior? What is it? When do you experience it? And when do you not experience it? When do you struggle to experience it? When do your partners experience it for you? Really? I had two research questions. One was, what is compersion? So really defining it and defining it beyond just a simple definition, but really understanding it. And number two was, what are the factors that promote and hinder compersion? And the reason why. I think the motivation also behind the research was to discover how do we promote more compersion? To have some sort of roadmap.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And also the fact that we can document and understand compression, I think does a lot to challenge mononormativity. So in that system of mononormativity, the only valid response to non monogamy is jealousy. And we can't even imagine an alternative. So to document what compersion is and how it happens and that we can sometimes do things to promote it or hinder it, is really challenging to that whole paradigm.
Libby Sinback:
So, yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, and I guess I'm curious, based on the research that you did, and it sounds like you also wove in the experiences from your clients. When you wrote the book, what were the most practical findings that you had about compersion? Like, if I was reading your book and I wanted to try to find ways to apply what you're sharing to my life or to my relationships, what were the things that were the most useful that you found?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Well, one, I really am happy that I found that compersion is not just emotion, because oftentimes, I think in non monogamous relationships, people are making the mistake of pressuring each other to feel compersion. And that is one of the big pitfalls that I actually did notice through my work with clients is people would come into my practice and say, like, hey, my partner is not feeling compersion for me and my other relationships. Can you fix them? Can you get them to feel compersion?
Libby Sinback:
Right, right.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And oftentimes it just wasn't the right context or the person just wasn't there yet, you know, maybe.
Libby Sinback:
And that whole idea that you can make someone feel something, that in and of itself, I mean, that's not how feelings work.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that's not how love works. You know, like, you don't want to pressure someone to feel a certain way. Like, that's kind of anti compersion, ironically.
Libby Sinback:
Well, I would even call that boundary violating. Yeah.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes, yes, exactly. So that is something that I found through my practice, but also through my research finding that compersion doesn't only show up as an emotion but also as behaviors and attitudes. Like people who might come to my practice and say, everything is fine and I am signing on to this, but I can't really get myself to feel compersion. How do I cultivate more compersion? I think it's important to know you can cultivate it by cultivating an attitude and cultivating actions, not just trying to invoke an emotion so you can still be in integrity and show up in a way that you want to show up without always having to, like, maintain this emotional state almost artificially. Because we're very complex individuals, we can't just invoke an emotion all the time.
Libby Sinback:
So compersion can both be a thing that you feel and a thing that you practice. Am I getting that right?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes, exactly.
Libby Sinback:
What are some practices that you observed in your research that you would call compulsive practices?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
So it's really kind of showing up in a supportive way for our partners. So let's say my partner is going on a date with someone else, and I'm feeling some jealousy or some insecurity around that, but I really want them to go on a date and I don't want to tell them not to. I can still say, like, hey, listen, I'm feeling some insecurity right now, but I really want you to have a good time. And, you know, you look great in that outfit and have a great time. So that would be, in my book, showing up compulsively because you're, you're not sabotaging that relationship and you're still showing up supportively without forcing yourself to feel a way. You're not feeling right.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. You're, you're showing up with an intention to support your partner's joy.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes, exactly. In the same way where I think even a monogamous couple, you know, you could transfer that to like, hey, you're going to see a baseball game. I'm not that interested. I'm not, like, ecstatic for you to go see this baseball game, but have a great time. I want you to be happy. I want you to enjoy yourself.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. And you might not even be happy about the time that you're not going to get to spend with them while they're doing it, too. You might even be bummed out. Oh, well, I'm going to stay home with the kids so that you can go watch that baseball game. But I'm doing it, and I'm happy to be doing it. I'm not doing it from this place of resentment or bitterness. Instead, I'm celebrating, like, the way in which I am supporting and showing up for you so that you can have your joy.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Exactly. Exactly.
Libby Sinback:
That sounds just like generosity to me. Like, I'm wondering if there's a dark side to that, though. Did that ever show up in your work? Like, if people were, like, too compulsive in their practices or pressured themselves too much to a place where it didn't feel good for them to be supporting their partner, did that ever show up?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Well, yeah. There are people who might go to the extreme of being so self sacrificial that they don't really honor their own needs and their own feelings, and they just always show up as, like, this almost, like, martyr like person. And that's not healthy either.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
So it's important to also, like, look at how full is my plate, you know, before I take everything from my plate to give it to you, you know, can I make sure that I have a full plate relationally, individually and socially? Which actually then leads me to the other really practical finding of my research is what are the factors that promote or hinder compersion? And, you know, that is all about having a full plate in these different areas. So it's like, you know, cultivating a garden where compersion can arise in a more organic and beautiful and integrated way.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So if I'm hearing you right, if you have a full plate, if you're taking care of yourself and tending to what you need, that creates. It's like the soil and the fertilizer to make it possible for compersion to bloom. And if you're. If you're not taking care of yourself or tending to what you need, it's going to be a whole lot harder for compersion to show up. And it makes sense to me because I think if we're not experiencing our own joy, it's going to be really hard to experience other people's joy as. As joy for ourselves because we're not tapped into our own, our own joy. And that's what we're ultimately, what we're feeling when we're feeling happy for someone else is.
Libby Sinback:
It's still our joy.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Right, right, exactly. And, yeah, like, if you want, I can run you through the six factors that promote conversion. And kind of the flip side is what hinders conversion. And I would love to give an idea of what that kind of garden or ecosystem is. And so great. The first is ideological commitment to non monogamous values. And that means being on board with what's happening and being on board with non monogamy to begin with. And the flip side to that would be being under duress, sometimes poly under duress or pud, and not really having full hearted consent to what's happening.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
So compression definitely is highly dependent on consent.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And for everyone to say, like, a real yes to that relationship that they're in. And so, yeah, that means having a clear why. Also, like, why am I non monogamous? Like, why am I in this? Why am I with you? Why am I.
Libby Sinback:
And what am I getting out of this?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes, well, that actually is another factor, which is the perception of benefits from your partner's other relationships. And that's where maybe compassion can be not only this spiritual ideal, but also this practical thing where, oh, my gosh, yes, I'm benefiting from it. It can be almost. There's a utilitarian side to it, and I actually discuss that in my book. Like, is it the spiritual ideal or is it utilitarian? And ultimately it can be both. And in the best case scenario, it is both. You are perceiving and receiving benefits from your partners at a relationship, whether it is you have a richer social life, you have a richer sexual life, you are feeling less pressure to fulfill all of your partner's needs. There's so many things that people can perceive as benefits, and that definitely feeds into compersion.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Another one is the security within the relationship. So if you're feeling like there's this sense of almost like saturation, like, you have a lot of love, you have a lot of trust, you have a lot of transparency and consent and communication within a relationship, it's going to be a lot easier to be generous and to say, like, oh, great, there's a surplus of love. You can give some to someone else. It doesn't feel like it's depriving me from, you know, the little bit I have if I'm feeling scarce and insecure.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
So security within the relationship is a huge one. There's also security within ourselves.
Libby Sinback:
Is that the fourth one?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yeah, I mean, I'm telling them a little bit out of order. I hope that's okay.
Libby Sinback:
Sure.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Can get the book to find what, you know, what the strict order is, but there's no order in the garden.
Libby Sinback:
Exactly, exactly. So security in yourself, that's important too. That makes sense.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Exactly. So do I feel secure enough within myself and do I have enough autonomy? You know, like just even financial and material autonomy, where my partner spending time and resources towards someone else is not maybe as deep of a threat to me and my livelihood and my sense of security in the world, because if I perceive any threat to my relationship as a deep threat to my survival, it's going to be harder to have, again, that sense of generosity and let go. And like, yes, of course I want you to spend time and resources with someone else.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And there's also a sense of, you know, are you constantly comparing yourself negatively or metamors?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So that insecurity, if that's driving you to comparison, of course, that would get in the way of conversion.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Exactly.
Libby Sinback:
So what else? What else, what are the other factors?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Another one actually talking about metamors is having, you know, something that would promote compersion is positive regard towards your metamors. So if you like your metamorph, if you trust your metamorph, if you think that they're bringing something positive to the table, and also if you don't feel threatened by them, then that can show up in so many different ways. It could be like, if you don't feel like they're dramatically better than you, or if you don't feel like they're out to almost like, steal your partner and be monogamous with them, if you don't think they're just taking resources away from your relationship ecosystem and actually bringing something to the plate that has a dramatic impact on compression. And actually, further research that I didn't do, but my colleague Sharon Flicker did, has sort of confirmed that this was probably the most weighty of the factors that influence compersion is how you feel about your metamorph.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, because what comes up for me is how important it is that onboardness that you were talking about before. When I think about metamours, I think about them being on board with your relationship with the shared partner. Right. I find that to be really, really tough when you're getting the sense that your metamorph isn't supportive of the relationship that you have. They're either indifferent or they're actively, like, hostile towards it. I don't. I could see that being really challenging to access compersion in that scenario.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Oh, my God, yes. Yeah. One of the big blocks to compersion is if you feel like you're a metamorphosis doesn't want you to exist.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
I think that makes it hard, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, it goes both ways, you know, comparison. Like, if your metamorph has compersion for you, it will definitely invite you having conversion for your metamorph.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah. That would make sense.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And then the final factor is coming into community, and that is the social factor and element to this, because, of course, we still live in a society that's largely mononormative, where if you call your mom, your friend, your therapist, even, you're likely to have someone tell you, oh, no wonder you're suffering right now because you're non monogamous. And if you were only going to be monogamous, you wouldn't be in pain right now. So it's important to have community and a support system that validates your choice to be non monogamous and having someone or a lot of people, ideally, to hang out with and to talk to, because that is not a path that you can navigate in isolation. So that promotes compersion, both because it provides a support system and also role models. So there's people who told me like, oh, I didn't think I would be able to experience compersion until I saw it in other people. I saw other people experiencing compersion. And then I was like, oh, okay, well, that's possible. Obviously, I'm seeing it in front of my eyes, so I can also feel compersion.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and we have in our neurology the ability to mirror other people's emotional experiences. And so when we see it, we can feel it through them. And then if we can feel it through them, we can feel what it would feel like for us, too. So that makes a lot of sense that, I mean, we're social animals. We develop our stories around emotion and relationship from, like you said, what we see modeled. And so if we want something different than what the mononormative structure is, then it really helps to be in a space where we can not just know it intellectually, but see it and feel it around other people. That makes so much sense. I say that all the time to people, so.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yep, exactly. Exactly. And even in that category, I add resources like books and podcasts like yours. And by the way, your podcast is usually the first one that I send to my coaching clients because it's so helpful and so healing, and it's helped me a ton. So, yeah, having, you know, like, feeding your mind with, with information that is outside of the monogamous paradigm and actually being reassured that how you're making your choices is okay, and some of the pain and insecurities you're feeling is not because you're making the wrong choice. It is a personal process, and it's important to distinguish between the two. Again, there are situations where there are maybe abusive dynamics and toxic dynamics. Where it's not, you know, it's.
Libby Sinback:
You shouldn't be feeling compersion.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Exactly. Exactly. Compersion is not always the answer.
Libby Sinback:
Right. Well, and I think that's so important. I'm so glad you said that, because when you were even naming out the conditions under which you can most easily cultivate compersion, I was thinking that if those aren't present, that might not be a sign that you need to do something different yourself to make those possible. There might be some of them that might. You might need to shift, but it also just might be a sign that you don't have the fertile ground for compression. And so it might be a sign you need to change something exactly like the relationship.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Right, right. And that's why, you know, I think this kind of roadmap of factors is helpful, because it helps you identify where is the bottleneck, or where are the bottlenecks in that sort of compression system. And once you're aware of the bottlenecks, you can see, like, can I do something about it, or do I need to change my relationship altogether?
Libby Sinback:
Right, right. Yeah. So are the factors that make compersion hard, are they just kind of the inverse? Because I'm already kind of hearing, like, as we're talking, that, like, most of them are just like, if you're not secure in your relationship and there's not abundance, well, then compersion will be hard. If you don't have a supportive metamorph and they would rather you not exist, then that makes it hard. Are there any other factors that make compersion hard that aren't just sort of the inverse of the ones that make it easy?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Well, it is very much of a mirroring effect. So, yeah, there's nothing really outside of that. So if we again, take them sort of in order, like, yeah, the absence of being on board with non monogamy or being on board with your relationship would be something like being poly under duress or having a lot of internalized mononormativity. That would be a block to compersion. The inverse of feeling security within yourself could have a lot of insecurities. Also sexual shame. And let's see, just negative comparison is a big one.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and that one you named also of, like, if you have a high degree of dependency on your partner, such that if you didn't have them, you would, like, totally not be. Okay. So your whole survival is tied up in this person being, you know, 100% available to you. Of course. Yeah, that would make sense. That then that's going to be that whatever happens with that person is going to be tied in with your own personal survival system. And I feel like we don't talk about that enough, actually, because we often do that with partners. Right.
Libby Sinback:
We do tie in our whole survival system with them. We create financial dependencies, we create labor dependencies. And so it can get really tricky to be like, I'm going to be okay no matter what, when actually, you might be significantly negatively impacted.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That is a huge one.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And I love that you. I love that you put that in with security with yourself, though, too, because it really is about, do I, would I feel safe within myself no matter what or. No. And, you know, I just.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
It's.
Libby Sinback:
It's. It's a really interesting factor to bring up. Mm hmm.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yep, yep. And then, of course, you know, like, the inverse of feeling secure with your relationship. I mean, there can be betrayal. There can be breaches of trust and breaches of consent that really impact your ability to feel compression or just limited availability.
Libby Sinback:
You know, like your partner not being there.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Right, right, exactly. Again, like, if you feel like your plate, your relational plate is not full, then it's going to be very hard to watch your partner take something from your metaphorical plate and give it to someone else because you're still hungry.
Libby Sinback:
Right, exactly.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yeah. And then, you know, like, some of the blocks to having a positive rapport with your metamors would be, again, like, perceiving your metamorph as, like, a cowboy, so to speak. Like someone who's just here to snag your partner away, someone who you just don't like. There is also sometimes, like, if you have almost, like, a visceral repulsion towards a person, like, sometimes we have that. And if your partner is deciding to be in a relationship with someone that you just, you know, you have that kind of visceral no to. And it's not that you're afraid that they're going to steal them away, but it might actually impact the way that you feel about your partner.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Be like, why are you choosing this person? Why are you choosing to make love with this person? Ew. I would never. And that might create distance. And, you know, like, it's. That's a hard one because you might not be able to say, like, oh, there's something wrong with that relationship. It's more of this, like, wow, I don't like this person.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And then, you know, the other factor of perceiving benefits from your partner's relationship, the inverse of that would be either not perceiving any benefits or worse, feeling like costing you. This relationship is taking away. Exactly. The cost benefit is just not in your favor, and that makes it hard. Yeah. And then finally the community factor is the absence of community. You know, like, if you are trying to do non monogamy, just you and your partner, you're isolated, you don't have anyone else to talk to. It is going to get extra hard because anyone else you might talk to about your troubles will make it worse.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Most likely they'll tell you that you're wrong, you chose wrongly, and that you need to get out of there.
Libby Sinback:
I love this. It is a beautiful roadmap, and it's interesting. I don't feel like it's just a roadmap for compersion. It feels like a roadmap for successful non monogamy in general.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, I'm curious, Marie, what was the most surprising thing in your research that you found?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Well, there were a few surprising things. One was that compassion and jealousy can coexist.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, say more about that.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yeah, like, I had felt that, but I had never really put words onto that. And actually, me and doctor Jolie Hamilton coined a word for that, and we call it cumbers struggle. And that is when a big part of you wants to feel compersion, or is in a space of compersion and support for your partners at our relationships, but you're also experiencing jealousy or insecurity or grief or some very difficult emotions. And, gosh, holding both at the same time can be very confusing and interesting and a very beautiful reflection of human complexity overall, for those of us who are familiar with ifs or internal family systems, I think it makes it a little bit easier to understand. Like, there's different parts of us doing different things and saying different things, but with jealousy and compassion. I think that's a great example of, it's not just one thing. It's not a binary or an on off switch. You can definitely experience both.
Libby Sinback:
I think that's the same with any positive change that you might be making in your life. When I'm thinking about some relationship, either an individual or a partnership, transitioning from a more monogamous mindset to a polyamorous mindset, my thinking there is you might be really excited to embrace this new relational paradigm. You might be really excited to explore other partners, but then there might be a part of you that's really sad to let go of monogamy, that is grieving the loss of being someone's only or having someone be your only. Even if, like, there's, like you said, a part of you that knows that that's not right for you or knows that's not realistic, or knows that that that's just not going to work, there might be another part of you that's like, oh, but that's, there. There's a part of me that wanted that. There's a part of me that thought that was a really beautiful idea. And so you can feel those two things at the same time, like excitement. Oh, yes, this is right.
Libby Sinback:
I'm stepping into this new thing. It's going to be really cool. I'm also letting go of something different, and I experienced that a lot with my clients. Like, I have so many clients who are actually in that they're like, I'm really excited to step into this new thing, and I can see all the things it's going to give me, and I think it'll make our relationship better, or it'll make my relationships with other people better. It'll make my life better. It'll be more authentic to me. Oh. But there was this other way that I'm used to.
Libby Sinback:
There's this other way that either me and my partner were, or that I just was in the world, a way that I was looking at things, and now I have to, like, let that go and let that die. And I don't know that everybody's always prepared for that. So I love that. You know, I think it's very similar with compersion and jealousy. Right. You can have this beautiful intention and deep, deep, deep, deep belief. Yes. I can be happy to see you with someone else, and it can also rip me up inside at the same time.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Right, right. Oh, my gosh. And the ability to hold that paradox is very profound, in my opinion. It really talks. Yeah. To the capacity of human beings to. To hold a constellation of things at.
Libby Sinback:
The same time and not make any of it wrong.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Or a problem. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for that. I love how you always communicate from such an accepting and beautiful and compassionate place.
Libby Sinback:
Thank you. Yeah. Well, so we were saying just before. I know I said this just before that this roadmap that you've made of, like, these six things that can support compersion, create that fertile ground for it to blossom, or if they're not there or something else is there, that's the opposite. It can really make it very hard. I know I had just said that. Well, that sounds like a real recipe for a lot of success in non monogamy, but I guess I wanted to ask you, do you think compersion is actually necessary for having a successful or harmonious polyamorous dynamic or. Or not?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yeah, thanks for asking that. And that's a very important question. And I'll refer back to the distinction between the definitions of compersion, where, you know, one way to see compersion is a positive emotion towards your partner relationship, and another definition is attitudinal compersion or having a positive attitude behavior that is supportive of your partner's other relationships. And I think the former, the emotional side, is definitely not necessary. I think it's kind of a bonus, you know, like, it's a great thing when you can feel it, but I don't think you should not be non monogamous until you have that right. But then the latter, the attitudinal compersion, and overall, what it means is having a positive interpretation of your partner's other relationships. I think that is more fundamental because if you don't have that, then, you know, you might always be really at odds with non monogamy and always be really at odds with your partners at our relationships. And the grind of that can be really exhausting and really painful.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yes.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that you make this distinction. Now I see, like, the real deep power of making the distinction between compersion as a feeling and compersion as a practice or as an attitude. Because I agree with you. I think that if you don't feel it, that's okay. I don't always feel happy for my partner when they're happy, even, you know, about something that has nothing to do with them and another partner, it might be just, I might not be happy that they went to that baseball game or whatever. Right.
Libby Sinback:
Like, I might just. But, but you're right. I think that if I was not feeling in my heart, willing to be supportive, if I wasn't feeling in my heart that their joy didn't amplify our overall life and ecosystem and everything, then that would be really, that would be really hard. And it might be a signal that there needs some. That something needs to be looked at there. If I'm really feeling that, I'm going to use a fancy word, parsimonious. I'm feeling that grasping that I can't, I can't intentionally make room for my partner to have joy unless I'm a part of it. That might be a, like you said, that seems like that would be a pretty big red flag, not just in polyamory, but I think especially if you're going to practice polyamory or non monogamy? That, yeah, I'm in agreement with you there.
Libby Sinback:
I think you need it. I think you need to cultivate it now. At the same time, Marie, do you think that it's is okay to not be there the minute you start polyamory?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Oh, my God, of course.
Libby Sinback:
Can you build it? Can you, can you get there like, or is it either you have it or you don't?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Oh, it definitely can be built. And part of it is just really acclimating to a new paradigm. You know, I've had research participants coming to non monogamy from an affair. After of monogamy, one person had an affair and there was a big earthquake in their relationships. But instead of bolting, they decided to talk about what happened and why, and they decided that, you know, we do want to be with other people. We both do. So let's actually, like, backtrack, heal the betrayal that happened and create non monogamy openly and ethically and consensually. And, you know, it took a couple of years for them to really be in a good place and experience compassion for one another, but they got there.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
And that, to me, is a testament of how you can definitely grow into it as long as you're both really willing and, you know, hopefully getting something out of it. You know, like, again, there's the cost benefit balance, and if it's favorable enough, then you can keep going. It's just like when one person is always dealing with more of the cost and, you know, having. Having a really hard time consistently, then, you know, it's going to be really, really hard to maintain over time.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So if I'm hearing you right, you could even take this rubric that's in your book, take these six elements, and really, it's not necessarily a way that you're going to rate your relationship, and either you get an a and you're going to be okay, or you get a d and you're doomed. But rather, you can take a look at it and you can say, okay, well, I have this. I have this. This one is really tough. This one. Maybe we need to do some work around so that we can, like, pull the weeds out of the garden that might be choking out compersion here, and. And then maybe there's room for it to flourish.
Libby Sinback:
It doesn't all have to be there.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Right. Right. And that's why I think that rubric is super helpful for us coaches.
Libby Sinback:
Absolutely.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
No, I do actually have this rubric available on my website. Whatiscompersion.com so if people want to download it, they can. And I always encourage my clients to download it and show it to me. And then we can see what are the main bottlenecks and what can we do about it. Like, I had a client recently actually start a non monogamous relationship with his wife of 15 years after 15 years of monogamy. And we saw that in his rubric. The lowest score was in the community area. Like, they didn't know anyone else who was non monogamous.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
They didn't have anyone else to talk to. So I was able to recommend a bunch of resources, including your podcast, including books, but also including a virtual community that he ended up joining and made a lot of great, meaningful connections there. So now, you know, like, his wife went and spent a weekend with someone else, and instead of being alone in his grief, in his insecurity and his fear, he was able to talk to people throughout the weekend, and that made all the difference. And he came out of that weekend feeling like, okay, well, that was hard, but I'm okay. I'm not alone.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, I recommend that so much to, to my clients. And also, I obviously also run to. Twice a year I do a group program where people have the opportunity there, too, to connect with each other and really hold each other through the work that they're doing. I think community, working on your relationship in community, connecting to other people, practicing non monogamy, if you're practicing it is absolutely. Is absolutely huge. This has been such a delightful conversation, Marie, and I really just want to appreciate you. I'm so excited about your book. I am wondering you've already shared the whatiscompersion.com.
Libby Sinback:
Is that the main place people can find you, or do you have other places that people can find you if they want to learn more about you?
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Yeah, absolutely. One of the best places is Instagram. I post everything about everything that I Instagram.
Libby Sinback:
Awesome.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Thank you. So the Instagram isove insight dating, or you can just type my name well.
Libby Sinback:
And I'll put the link in the show notes. So don't worry about that. All that will be there.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
I have Facebook, I have LinkedIn. And let's see what else. Yeah, definitely follow me on the socials and go to my website, whatiscompersion.com. And what else did I want to say? Yeah, just find me. And I'm so excited for folks to read my book. I would love to hear people's feedback about it as well. It's coming out on June 18, so I don't know when this podcast will.
Libby Sinback:
Be released, and it's open for pre order now, so you can get it. You can get your name on the list now. And, yeah, your episode will be out before the book is released.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Amazing. So, yeah, please go online and order it. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Roman and Littlefield website.
Libby Sinback:
Fantastic. Marie, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for being on the show.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Thank you, Libby. It's such an honor and a joy. Thank you for always being so. Yeah. Just loving and compassionate and healing in your message. I cannot tell you enough how I appreciate it, and my clients appreciate it.
Libby Sinback:
That's so wonderful to hear. See you next time.
Dr. Marie Thouin:
Okay, bye.
