Navigating Asexuality with Aubri Lancaster
Libby talks with AASECT-certified sexuality educator Aubri Lancaster about asexuality and aromanticism.
SHOW LINKS
Aubri's website: https://acesexeducation.com/
Aubri's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/acesexeducation/
Transcript
Aubri Lancaster:
I really lean into the concept that these labels are tools. They are tools to help us to communicate our needs and boundaries and define community. And this is community language. So it is developed within the community, coming out of the community. So it is a way to describe our internal experiences rather than language that is coming from an authoritative place that is telling us what we are experiencing.
Libby Sinback:
After much of my listeners have asked me to talk about asexuality, I have finally got a wonderful conversation for you today. The reason I haven't talked about asexuality a lot on my show is because while I myself identify as gray, asexual, sometimes demisexual, sometimes ace, I feel like my own experience is my own experience. And I am not an expert on asexuality. So I found one, and her name.
Libby Sinback:
Is Aubrey Lancaster, and she's going to be joining me for this amazing conversation today. Aubrey is an asex and anti up certified sexuality educator.
Libby Sinback:
She herself is a gray, romantic asexual so has lived experience and a connection to the asexual and aromantic communities, which provides a unique perspective on the issues facing the landscape of sexuality and orientation. When not working, Aubree spends time with her spouse, her friends, her seven year old, and her two adorable chihuahuas. I am just so grateful that Aubrey joined me on my show, and I'm.
Libby Sinback:
Really excited to share our conversation together. And I hope you'll listen. Whether or not you identify as Ace or wonder if you're Ace or Aro, I hope you'll listen, because I think that there's something in this conversation for everyone.
Libby Sinback:
So, without further ado, my conversation with Aubrey Lancaster. Welcome, Aubrey. I am so happy to have you here.
Aubri Lancaster:
Thank you.
Libby Sinback:
Now, I just introduced you in the intro, but I'm wondering if you could just say a little bit more about yourself, the human, before we dive into our conversation.
Aubri Lancaster:
Sure. I'm an asex certified sexuality educator, and my focus is in, obviously, asexuality and aromanticism. Identify as gray, romantic, asexual, and demi femme as a person. Otherwise, I'm a secular jewish mother and partner, and I have a couple of cute little chihuahuas.
Libby Sinback:
Okay, that all sounds awesome. You used some identifiers there that I think some of my listeners might not be familiar with. And I'm wondering, would you be comfortable defining them for us?
Aubri Lancaster:
Sure. Like which one?
Libby Sinback:
Well, let's start with gray romantic.
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah. So when we talk about asexuality and aromanticism, we're talking about a couple of different kinds of attraction. So asexual being someone who experiences little to no sexual attraction, and a romantic is someone who experiences little to no romantic attraction. But these are not absolute. There are gray areas, and I identify within the gray area for romantic attraction because I know I felt it. And I have had several very strong romantic attraction experiences in my life, but I also have had very specific experiences of it. And I don't get crushes very easily. And ever since I met my partner, I haven't had any crushes on anyone.
Aubri Lancaster:
So all of my relationships for the last 15 years have been platonic relationships. And so that's kind of where I situate myself.
Libby Sinback:
Thank you. That's a beautiful definition. So if I'm getting it right, like gray romantic would be, I can experience romantic attraction, but it's rare. And it sounds like for you at least, you would also define it as. It's very specific. A very specific set of circumstances makes that possible for you.
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah, it's an umbrella term. So any of these are more about how do you relate to the term for your identity? So for me, I relate to it because it is very specific circumstances and very rare throughout my life. But for some people, it's something that they feel is in between aromantic and what we would call alloromantic, which is somebody who does experience romantic attraction in what they would consider a typical way, which is, of course, up for debate in and of itself.
Libby Sinback:
Right, right. Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster:
Or some may just consider that they feel it weaker, like, to a lesser degree, where they really lean into the concept of very specific circumstances, like demi romantic, where they need an emotional bond to access romantic attraction.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah. And I love that. And I think that we're probably going to have to. You're probably going to hear that a lot in this episode, I think, is that when you're using these terms, whether it's asexual, aromantic, gray romantic, demi romantic, demisexual, like with a lot of the other terms that you might hear, like polyamorous or non monogamous, or which you hear on my show a lot, you do have to also define them further for yourself. Like, what does that actually mean for you?
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah, absolutely. I really lean into the concept that these labels are tools. They are tools to help us to communicate our needs and boundaries and define community. And this is community language. So it is developed within the community. It's coming out of the community. So it is a way to describe our internal experiences, rather than language that is coming from an authoritative place that is telling us what we are experiencing.
Libby Sinback:
I love that. I want to say that again, I want to reflect that back to you because I thought it was really an important point to make. These terms are how I can tell you about me so that we can connect.
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
So that I can feel understood and so that I can understand you, and so that we can have both a common language for something that we're going through inside of ourselves, but also so that we have a way to explain ourselves to other people. Am I getting that? Yeah, that's what I hear. And so it's not something that you give to someone else. It's not something that someone imposes upon you. It is something you use to describe your experience?
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah, absolutely. It's very much not a prescriptivist type language. I think the most I might go in that direction is when somebody is trying to understand their experience, they're describing it. I might say. Have you looked into this terminology?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, I mean, the way I describe it to people is try this on and see if there's a way that it fits you. And if it serves you to wear it, then wear it. If it doesn't serve you to wear it, then don't wear it. But if it. If you. It's like, it's like clothing, you know, it's a way of expressing who you are. If it fits, then you are it. And I just want to say that, like, I want to emphasize that to people as we're talking.
Libby Sinback:
If you're. If you're starting to hear us talking about asex. Asexuality and aromanticism, we're probably going to talk more about asexuality than aromanticism. But we're talking about both. But as you start to wonder if any of you are listening or wondering, does that fit me? There's no police at the door. In fact, no police. Right. There's no police at the door.
Libby Sinback:
Checking your credentials here.
Aubri Lancaster:
Absolutely. Now, I love the concept of trying them on. I talk about them like hats as well. And it's the sort of thing that's the fluidity of it. You can try a term on, and if it feels right in the moment, then that's the term. You, you use and if you find another one down the road that fits you better or you change because people change and a new term just feels like it resonates better for you. You can change your labels. Yeah, we can give people space to do that.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, I think that one, that last one is so important that you can change. I'll name for people because people have heard me talk on this show and on my socials that I identify as asexual. And for me that very much is, I do not experience very much or any sexual attraction, but it kind. I've been, as I've been in a place of discovery because I used to think I experienced sexual attraction when I was. When what I was really experiencing was aesthetic attraction, romantic attraction, and energetic attraction, which I thought was sexual attraction. But then when I started to really tune into it, I was like, there's not any sex connection happening there. Like, I'm drawn to the person, but it doesn't make me want to fuck them in any way. Like I'm willing to because I like them a lot.
Libby Sinback:
I'm willing to see if that thing might be a fun thing for us to do, but it's not actually a thing that makes me like, oh, that's what I want to do. And I thought everybody was that way. I thought that's just how it worked. But so, as I've been, when I finally found out that asexuality was a label and that what it meant was you don't experience sexual attraction and that didn't mean that you weren't interested in sex, because I was very interested in sex from like a, an academic place. I was like, fascinated by it. I loved reading trashy romance novels when I was in high school. I was very interested from an early, early age, but I didn't do any sex. I was just interested in it.
Libby Sinback:
I was interested in reading about it and understanding it, because obviously it was a big thing moving through our world and affecting people's behavior and thought patterns and desires. And so I was interested in it, but my actual personal desire for it was pretty low.
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Or it was motivated by other things that weren't actually about pleasure or. But again, I thought that's how everybody was. And so I didn't think that there was anything different about me until I found out about this label. But it still is a fluid thing for me. Sometimes I say I'm demisexual. Sometimes I say I'm gray asexual. Sometimes I say I'm asexual and I feel more asexual. When it's a presidential election year, for some reason, I appreciate that I'm allowed to be fluid.
Aubri Lancaster:
I actually, when I was a teenager, I didn't have that fascination, and I was very much romantically fascinated. That's where all of my attention was. I just didn't know that there was a difference. And it wasn't until I was in a relationship where I was expected to be sexual that I realized that I just didn't have that same inclination and got into actually selling adult toys as a way to learn more about what better way to learn than to teach. And then my intellectual fascination really kicked in. And so that absolutely is where my connection to the sexual is now. It's very much in the intellectual space.
Libby Sinback:
Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, and you are an educator, and you are ASEC certified, and so you went, you went all the way. I mean, I know about the ASEC certification because I looked into it is, it is not a lighthearted, is a lot of hours and a lot of training, and it's, it's a big deal.
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah, it's 150 hours of CES plus supervision and SAr. And it is a lot. But it was amazing. I will say that going through all of that training, I learned so, so, so much. Even after having spent 16 years in the adult industry teaching and learning about all of this stuff, going to conferences and stuff, what I learned within that certification process was so expansive.
Libby Sinback:
I'm just appreciating this for a moment. I'm picturing, like, I'm just picturing this person who is like, I'm asexual, and I am going all the way in sexuality education. And before that, I liked to sell, you know, sex toys. And this is a thing that I'm just going to, like, caveat that you can choose not to answer this question and I will just take the whole thing out. But I can't help it because it's a question that I'm curious about. Was there ever a moment when you were in that, in, in that phase of I'm going to go into the adult toy industry to, like, learn more about this because it's not something that I'm naturally wanting to do. Was there any, ever any energy of I need to fix myself in there?
Aubri Lancaster:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When I was in that time, Yahoo groups were a big thing, and I joined a Yahoo group called Female Sexual dysfunction, and I went to my doctor and she prescribed me testosterone cream, which I used for a few months and didn't really feel any different, so I stopped. But, yeah, it was a long time of feeling broken and, you know, especially doing adult toy parties and constantly having people like, oh, I bet your husband's a, you know, happy guy. And I felt like a fraud in some ways, that I didn't feel like I was living what they thought I should be living and what I thought I should be living. Like, you know, like, why? Why is there still this, you know, constant challenge here? And so when I finally found the language of asexuality, there was this intense joy of, like, oh, there's something here that nobody ever told me existed. It's a thing, I'm not broken. And I know there's so many different ways people connect to their sexuality in a way that they get that relief of, oh, I'm not broken.
Aubri Lancaster:
And it's not just asexuality. But that was mine. That was my moment of, oh, I.
Libby Sinback:
Mean, I think that was, you know, not. I mean, that's. That was queer people too. You know, decades ago, before, you know, homosexuality was a thing that was ever talked about publicly, and what a gift. Now that it's so talked about that now, when you're very, very young, you get to, like, actually wonder about which type of person you're attracted to and what your sexuality is and how it works. And I'm envious of the young ones.
Aubri Lancaster:
And asexuality is a queer identity, as is aromanticism. It all queers our expectations of heteronormativity and a mononormativity and all of these ways that we are told we are to experience relationships and sexuality.
Libby Sinback:
That's such a good point. I appreciate you corrected me on that last time, and I still have to remember that asexuality is a queer identity because it is. It is. And again, there's no. There's no cops at the door.
Aubri Lancaster:
Well, there are in some ways. There's a lot of gatekeeping around embracing asexuality and aromanticism in queer spaces, but there also is in heteronormative spaces. So asexuality gets constantly marginalized and erased because it is not seen as the desirable way to exist to people that don't know what it feels like to have other non sexual forms of intimacy and pleasure to center in one's relationship.
Libby Sinback:
You know, I'm really glad you said that. It's something that I forget about because of the way that I, like, I live now, which is very affirming of all of my identities. But I think it's important to say somebody actually said to me, maybe, like, maybe it was like, six months ago or something like that, they were asking me, like, well, if you're. If you don't experience a lot of sexual desire, do you just not have any potency? I was like, what? And there are people, and I think, I don't want to name names, but I do know that there are people who really believe that sexual, specifically sexual energy is, like, the lifeblood that flows through us, and it's this energetic vitality, and if you don't have it, then there is something wrong with you or you're stifling it in some way. And again, this whole idea of, like, all people are one way, and it's this way and around sexuality is a message that I think a lot of us get at some point in multiple ways in our lives. And when we look at ourselves and we go, no, that does not. I'm not that, or I don't feel that right now that I'm not experiencing it. That way we can end up gaslighting ourselves that we should be and try to fake it till we make it, or we'll will go on a journey of, oh, well, I guess I don't have any potent vitality.
Libby Sinback:
I need to go, like you said, fix myself. I need to change something.
Aubri Lancaster:
So much of that is compulsory sexuality.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, yes, let's talk about compulsory sexuality.
Aubri Lancaster:
Compulsory sexuality is the assumption that everyone wants and needs sex and is defined by some kind of sexual attraction. And I think that also ties into patriarchy in what you're talking about around vitality, because I think that leans into the concept of eroticism, which, of course, Audre Lorde made very amazing work around explaining how we have been told, those of us who are socialized as women, that sex is our only access to that vitality and eroticism. And yet you can have non sexual erotic experiences, as in, you know, putting your feet on the ground and feeling the wind and, you know, the being embodied and present and feeling life around you and in you.
Libby Sinback:
You know, that brings to mind this story that I often tell, which was when I was in my twenties, I got really, really into partnered swing dancing, Lindy hop and stuff like that. And I was really, really into it. And. And, like, went traveling, went in competitions, took a ton of lessons, and I was fairly decent at it. I wouldn't say I was great, but I still love it to this day. I just don't do it as much. But I remember this was back before smartphones. This was when the Internet was still very young, and we had discussion boards, like bulletin boards to chat about dancing.
Libby Sinback:
And I wrote in the bulletin board, little 23, 22 year old me, whatever. And I wrote, like, a good dance is better than sex. And people, of course, made fun of me. And they said. One of the first things they said was, well, you must not have had any good sex. And they were actually right about that. I was, in fact, 22, and I had only been having sex with men at that point, so what are the odds? No offense, but also I was asexual.
Aubri Lancaster:
You could respond, it sounds like you haven't had good dance.
Libby Sinback:
You know, I was. I was. I was so tender, Aubrey. I was such a tender young person. But I really. That. That was very wounding to me, actually, even though it was true. But it just.
Libby Sinback:
Now I feel like that was the me that was trying to say, no, this type of experience is actually like what you were describing. I wouldn't necessarily describe it erotic, but I would describe it as extremely vital and enlivening and activating to all of my senses. I mean, I guess if that's erotic, but I don't. I didn't feel it involved my genitals, I guess.
Aubri Lancaster:
Erotic does not have to involve genitals.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, say more about that. I want to understand.
Aubri Lancaster:
The patriarchy has sexualized eroticism to the point where we see it as a synonymous term in so many ways.
Libby Sinback:
Like, erotic must mean fucking, but it does not.
Aubri Lancaster:
Right? And that cuts off our access to all of the other ways that we can connect to life force and our own and others in the world around us, because we are told that the only way is through sex.
Libby Sinback:
Yes. That's so accurate. And what's interesting, though, is that also was, again, this young me knew something different, which is kind of cool when I think about it now, because I think another word that I might use to describe what you're talking about is sensuality. Because when I think about sensuality, I think about the senses. I think about really feeling all the things and senses. I'm not just talking about touch, taste, smell. I'm talking about cryoperception and interoception and energetic connection and all of these juicy things. And I do think that that probably, again, ties into that feeling of aliveness, being in your body.
Libby Sinback:
People are talking about being embodied a lot, and that's one of the buzzwords right now. And it seems like they're all different flavors of a similar thing that we're trying to express, which is there's a way to connect to the world and to ourselves, that there are many ways to connect to the world and to ourselves. That are available besides sex.
Aubri Lancaster:
Right. I'm actually building a slide deck right now for a presentation, the anatomy of pleasure, that I have slides specifically on what you were just talking about. The fact, the expansiveness of the senses beyond the basic five that we're told that exist, as well as interoception, exteroception, and proprioception, and the ways that we can access pleasure through these senses in both sexual and non sexual ways.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah. Well, and let's talk about pleasure. Actually, I want to move in that direction because I teach a unit on pleasure in the 16 week group program that I do. And every time I run the program, I ask the group, when I say pleasure, what do you think of? And a fair proportion of people think, I mean, sex. You know, and I'll say that, too, about intimacy. When we say the word intimacy, people also think sex. And so I think that, again, that kind of ties to what you just said there about, like, we've. We've been told there's this one way to be deeply connected to ourselves, our bodies, enjoyment, and other people.
Libby Sinback:
I feel this sadness when I hear people only think about sex when they think about pleasure, because I think even within allosexual. Am I saying that right? Allosexual partnerships where both people experience sex in a more normative way. It's really common in relationships for people to not access these other ways of touch just for its own sake. You know, it's often like this on ramp for sex, rather than being just enjoyable for itself. And I guess, like, I just. I guess let's talk about pleasure. Like pleasure that is non sexual.
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah. Yeah. You're hitting on so many things that I'm working on right now, and I love it. I actually have an entire slide that talks about the fact that sexual is an adjective, that it is a descriptive term. It is not the end all, be all. Sexual pleasure is one of many, many different kinds of pleasure. And when we really start to look at all of the different ways that our bodies can perceive the world around us, all of our senses can give us pleasure. They can also give us pain, or we may not have access to them.
Aubri Lancaster:
So, you know, the expansiveness of that is in really thinking about what senses we have. And, you know, I look at things. I have kind of a diagram that I've been working on where we're looking at both sensory seeking behaviors and sensory avoidant behaviors, and then also being aware that with any sense, you may have high sensitivity or low or no registration of that sense. And these can kind of come together in different ways. So some people are high sensitivity and sensory seeking, or that may lead them to be sensory avoidant, just as they may be low registration or no registration. So they are more seeking of that, or they're avoidant of it because it doesn't really matter as much to them.
Libby Sinback:
It doesn't do anything.
Aubri Lancaster:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, and even as you're saying that a thing that I'm thinking about is having a lack of sensory input can also be pleasurable. You know, when I think about silence, yeah. It can be incredibly pleasurable.
Aubri Lancaster:
The intentional deprivation of particular senses can also be a way that we engage with that. So, like sensory deprivation chambers or, you know, just a simple blindfold, whatever that might be. I have a very weak sense of smell, so very low registration sense of smell. So there are some senses smell that I really, really like, and then some that when I can actually smell them, they, they are way too overwhelming. And, you know, it's like shining a bright light on my sense of smell that I don't usually have access to.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And I want to loop this back here, just back towards asexuality, because when we're, as we're talking about this, what comes up for me is how important it is. If you are imagining, oh, I have low sexual desire or, oh, I might be asexual, that, that doesn't mean that you have no life force or that you have no way of accessing pleasure with a partner. And another episode you can go back to if you want to listen in is the one I did with Sinead Jackson Kendall, where we talk about, like, non sexual relationships, which are different than being asexual, because you can be allosexual and have a non sexual partnership. That's very wonderful and rewarding, but that doesn't mean that you're ace. But I guess I want to loop back to just like, for people who are listening to us talking, maybe going, oh, that sounds a little bit like me. Oh, I don't know. Maybe.
Libby Sinback:
What would be the first piece of advice you'd give people who are just wondering, am I ace? Is this something that's right for me?
Aubri Lancaster:
You know, whatever your preferred method of learning is, you can find information on asexuality now, which is really great. So if you like searching the Internet, there's websites like asexuality.org, or there's aces and arows.org, there's aromanticism.org, and then on any social media platform, if you search hash, asexual or aromantic, you'll find content creators that center this in their work. I'm on Instagram as acessexeducation. And then there's books that are finally available now. Like if you went back, you know, 15 years, there's basically nothing, but now we're getting an explosion of people bringing out more information. So Ace by Angela Chen is one of my favorites. I think it's a really good, comprehensive understanding, especially within the power dynamics of american, you know, society. And then if you want more of a casual conversation type book, I am Ace by Cody Daigle.
Aubri Lancaster:
Orians is a great book, too. That one is more about for somebody who is just coming into the identity, and they're full of questions. That book answers so many of the most common questions that come up and gives some great advice as to, you know, what to do, how to handle situations that may arise, like, you know, do I have to come out now or what do I do about being with a partner? And Cody's coming out with another book later this year, actually on Ace and Aro relationships, which I'm really excited to see what they do with that book.
Libby Sinback:
And they're ace stat advice on Instagram. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so educating yourself, I'm hearing, is the first thing?
Aubri Lancaster:
Yes. And engage with the community. Find your community. Facebook has a ton of ace and arrow support groups. Some of them are great, some of them not so great. You kind of have to put your feelers out there, see what resonates for you. And then ace as an arrows.org groups I believe it is, actually has a map you can search for in person groups in your area. Meet up.com also is another place to look for in person community.
Libby Sinback:
When people are on this journey and starting to try to figure this out, what are some ways in which they could really, I guess, what do they tend to get wrong or where do they tend to, like, get stuck?
Aubri Lancaster:
I think there's a tendency to be very essentialist and to get very stuck in. How you connect to asexuality is the only way to connect to it. And it is a very vast spectrum.
Libby Sinback:
Can we talk about that?
Aubri Lancaster:
The spectrum, for a lot of people, it really hinges on this concept of attraction and especially that sexual attraction, being separated from romantic attraction. But not everybody feels that separation. Not everybody feels that it is as strongly about attraction for them as it is about the concept of desire and wanting. So whereas to our frameworks in western society, focus sexual orientation around the concept of attraction, not wanting sex is also pathologized and authored in our society and the asexual community is a space for people that may just not want sex.
Libby Sinback:
Right?
Aubri Lancaster:
But if we hinge on this idea of not wanting sex, then asexual people who do want sex also feel othered. So it's this constant push and pull. That's why I really hate myth busting around asexuality and aromanticism, because myth busting tries to say what asexuality is not. And that almost always others, people that do experience whatever that is, they're saying it's not.
Libby Sinback:
Yes, yes. And so what I'm hearing there is you can be asexual, you can hold that identity just because you're not interested in sex, even if you by experience sexual attraction or experience sexual arousal. And I think it's important to make the distinction between those things, right? There's attraction, which is who makes me want to have sex, right? Like, I see that person, that, that makes me think about sex with that person and then finding stuff.
Aubri Lancaster:
I'm sorry.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, like the. Well, no, you tell me. You tell me. You're the. You're the. This is just how I understand it.
Aubri Lancaster:
It's like, yeah, you have a direction.
Libby Sinback:
Your sex wants to go is attraction. And then there's arousal, which is blood flow to your genitals. And then there's desire, which is that wanting that you were talking about, wanting.
Aubri Lancaster:
To engage with the arousal and all of those things. So a very common analogy in the community is food and hunger, because that's something that we often can very much relate to, concept of libido being analogous to the concept of being hungry. You know, you could be really, really hungry, and then there's a spread of food in front of you and none of it looks appealing. And, you know, maybe to the point of actually turning your stomach and like, oh, I don't, I don't want any of this. But you're hungry. And so that attraction is actually finding somebody appealing to engage with that libido. And, you know, there's, there's also the aspects of, you know, what, what happens when you actually start eating, even if you're not finding the food appealing, maybe it tastes good. Even if you look at it, it doesn't really look like much, but you taste it like, oh, that actually, that's good.
Aubri Lancaster:
It satiates you. It takes care of the hunger. All of that can be good. Similarly, you know, you may not find another person appealing, but if you are in a consensual situation where you do actually want to engage sexually with another person and you've you know, negotiated what you want to negotiate. And maybe it's love, maybe it's whatever kind of relationship that you have, you may find that you do start to enjoy the experience of sexual stimulation and pleasure once it begins kind of that responsive desire element of it. So the wanting is still separate in some ways from that attraction.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's so important because I think there are, like, for me for sure, I don't experience little to know sexual attraction.
Aubri Lancaster:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
But if it's like the food, right, I'll look at the spread and I'll go, none of it really looks that great, but if I've had one of those things before, even though it doesn't look great to me, I'll probably eat it because I know reliably it's, it'll do, it'll taste good once I get it in my mouth. And, and so that's my really, I mean, that's how I identify as ace, is. It's like I don't desire it. Um, if I'm not, if I'm not standing in front of food, I don't actually generally feel hungry all that often. And sometimes I do feel hungry, but there's no food around and I'm not going to bother going to get some. It's like, whatever, who cares? Um, but if there's a particular dish on the table and I know it tastes good, uh, and I know it's going to satisfy my hunger, I will, I will eat that dish. I might even take the trouble to cook it. It's a good analogy.
Aubri Lancaster:
I think where the analogy starts to break down, though, is where people just don't understand that asexual people may still have very rich and fulfilling solo sex lives.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, yeah.
Aubri Lancaster:
Where, you know, again, we're not talking about finding anyone else appealing, but still wanting to engage sexually with one's own body and potentially engage in fantasy or, you know, full bodied arousal. Like, there's so much that can be done within a solo context, but so much of our society focuses on all of that only being accessible in an interpersonal context.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, I think that's so important. Like, you can masturbate, you can watch porn, and you can still be completely uninterested in having sex with other people, and you can find a home in the asexual community if that's who you are. Am I getting it?
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah. And while some people who are ace do enjoy porn or erotica that involves stories about interpersonal connection, some asexual people don't find any sexual interest in an interpersonal dynamic. So, Warner erotica that focuses entirely on a solo experience might be more appealing for them, but that's much harder to find.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you. I hear you. And yet that might be the thing that is enjoyable.
Aubri Lancaster:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
And so I think, like, I just want to make sure we break it down that there's, like, there's. There's desire, there's attraction, there's arousal, there's libido, and all of these things can impact your sexuality. And then there's romantic attraction and romantic desire. And, I mean, is there a romantic libido? Is that a thing?
Aubri Lancaster:
I really find that to be a good analogy for limerence.
Libby Sinback:
Okay.
Aubri Lancaster:
Limerence is a term that was coined by Doctor Dorothy Tenov for her 1979 book Love and limerence. It was based on six years of research interviewing thousands of people to find out how people experience romantic love and romantic attraction. And so as to not get into a conflation of terminology, she created the term limerence to describe that experience. And it is specifically kind of a collection of experiences, usually involving some sort of heightened state of euphoria when feelings of love are reciprocated for another person. So the goal of limerence is reciprocation of feelings at a similar level of intensity, creating that intense euphoria if you think they love you back, and intense heartache if you think they don't, coupled with intrusive thoughts where you cannot get the person out of your head, all roads lead back to thinking about that person. Their good qualities are magnified, and their bad qualities are minimized, excused, and ignored. Limerence thrives on hope and uncertainty. So long as there is hope for reciprocation and uncertainty as to whether or not it exists, limerence can continue to grow.
Aubri Lancaster:
And there's different stages of limerence. There's ways that limerence may sober or end, and limerence is a temporary state. So limerence, regardless of reciprocation, is still only going to last a certain amount of time. Some people kind of equate it with new relationship energy. I think new relationship energy can still have more, doesn't necessarily require all of those components, so it doesn't necessarily require the intrusive thoughts or expanding their good qualities, minimizing bad qualities. It doesn't always have the same intensity of euphoria, but it might. These are not exact translated terms.
Libby Sinback:
No, they sound different. But probably you can be in new relationship energy and have limerence be part of that energy, for sure.
Aubri Lancaster:
And because that conclusion of ending the need for hope and uncertainty. When there is a commitment within a relationship, that is often where that limerence starts to wane, because you're moving into either a sobering point where you start to realize they're not actually everything you thought they were, or you move into that deeper, long love and what Tennove calls affectionate bonding. And I've also heard the term emergent love, and that's Zara. I do not want to mispronounce her last name. She wrote love by design. It's a new book that just came out that's really a fascinating look at love in a relationship.
Libby Sinback:
You know, it's interesting, even as you're describing limerence to me, I go, no, thank you. I mean, I know that it is a thing that I know for sure I can experience. So I know and I know for sure that, uh, that is not the same thing as romantic love for me, for sure. Like, roman, romantic love is, uh, I think minus the anxiety. Like, I definitely like the. The that, like, heart, eyes kind of thing, but, like, minus the anxiety. But I have experienced limerence, and just even as I'm listening to you talk about it, I could see people identifying as aromantic just because that experience sounds so horrible to them.
Aubri Lancaster:
Limerence is. Ten of talks about it as not being a pathological state, that for some people, it is just how they naturally initiate the bonding process. It's not how everybody initiates it. Unfortunately, a lot of the research that has been done since she brought this term into the world has been focused on the heightened, extreme states of limerence, where people die for love, people kill for love, unrequited love affairs, all of these things people do when they are in that intense state of limerence, that can have negative consequences. So a lot of the work on limerence really focuses on the damage it can do, but that just further pathologizes the experience for those that may have other experiences with it, may see it as a beautiful experience, may have moved through it and been in a good place, it also suggests that there is that limerence only comes from trauma or insecure attachment. Again, rather than looking at all of the different ways that people experience limerence.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, I mean, it's interesting that you say it's pathologized. That's really interesting. I mean, it makes sense because, of course, it's like you've lost your head, your head over heels, you're falling all these, like, out of control terms to describe it.
Aubri Lancaster:
It is an involuntary state.
Libby Sinback:
That's one of the requirements it needs to be involuntary.
Aubri Lancaster:
It is. One of the observations Tenov made is that it is, at least to some degree, an involuntary state that generally people cannot control whether or not they are in it. They may be able to control whether or not they feel feed it.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, that's what I was thinking, is that I think you could find yourself in that state and not necessarily be out of control. And in fact, I could see some people really, I mean, we talk about riding the wave of that experience with the, you know, with the combo, that combo of, like, hope and anxiety, intense desire and uncertainty and. But I'm just thinking, I'm just thinking about also for some people, that, that feeling of it being involuntary, of it taking hold of you. I could see some people just not wanting that for themselves. And I guess I wonder, do some people who identify as a Roy claim to just not experience limerence? Or are there some that experience it, but don't like it? And that's part of why they identify that way?
Aubri Lancaster:
The eire community doesn't necessarily necessarily center experiences around the concept of limerence. Specifically, limerence has come up in conversations around aromanticism. But if you go to aromanticism.org, comma, they kind of have a more expansive definition of romantic attraction that romantic attraction is experiencing, or aromanticism is experiencing little to no romantic attraction to others or feeling disconnected from social expectations around romance. So I do think there is, to some degree, that cognizance of maybe having had the experience of limerence and not enjoying it and not wanting that in one's life again. And part of the progression of limerence that Tenov describes is it starts with being in a state of readiness and longing. So if you are not in longing for that feeling, it is not necessarily as likely to take hold. Now, I'm not going to say it never will. People all the time describe, like, I never thought it would happen to me, but I am head over heels in love, you know, those sorts of experiences.
Aubri Lancaster:
But I think just as we need sex education, we need romance education. The more people can understand the mechanics of limerence, the less it situates in this ethereal, magical, spiritual other place that could never be explained or understood. And yet we can. There are mechanics to it, there are characteristics of it that we can describe. And the more we can understand those things, the more we can recognize when we're in it and recognize, hey, maybe my perceptions here are a little skewed. Maybe my friend is right when they say, this person may not be the best one for me.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and I appreciate you saying that for people who are talking about aromanticism and defining that term, limerence is in there. But it's more about this cultural constant construct of what romantic love is and either not experiencing it or being repulsed by it or not connecting to it and or not. You know, like varying degrees of I don't want anything to do with that all the way to I'm repulsed by that.
Aubri Lancaster:
And it comes back to that concept of ultimately, we are the arbiter of our own labels and terms that describe ourselves. So if limerence doesn't feel analogous to romantic attraction for you, then that's not going to be a good analogy or concept to really dive into. And when our culture sets up romance in this structured, you must find the one person that you will live the rest of your life with, and you must be completely compatible in all ways with this one person. And get married and never marry anyone else.
Libby Sinback:
And that will be the most important person in your life above everybody else. Hello. Amount of normativity. Exactly.
Aubri Lancaster:
So for some people, their aromanticism is more about not connecting to that relationship escalator as a desire for them.
Libby Sinback:
You know, that's so interesting because I feel that way, but I wouldn't identify as a ro, because I fall in love all the time, and I consider, like that feeling of falling in love and the getting of the crushes, like you talked about. I would say that that happens to me a lot and a little less as I've aged, but still a lot. And I find getting crushes to be very. Or squishes, if we're talking about platonic, which I have platonic romantic feelings. So can you do that? Can you feel platonic romantic or non sexual romantic feelings?
Aubri Lancaster:
I guess, definitely non sexual romantic feelings. That's where a lot of allo romantic, asexual people situate themselves, for sure. Yes, I. If you think about these components of limerence, think about euphoria. There are other ways that we may experience euphoric love for another person or for a place, an experience, and also ways that we may not experience it the way we're told to. So think about having a baby and being told, oh, well, as soon as that baby's out, you're going to be completely head over heels in love. And yet not everybody experiences that. Some people take weeks or months to bond with their baby, and it may never be a euphoric kind of love.
Aubri Lancaster:
It doesn't mean they don't love their baby.
Libby Sinback:
Right. Or they might experience euphoria from something different than what they're told they're supposed to experience it from, you know, your.
Aubri Lancaster:
Work, passion, nature, a pet.
Libby Sinback:
Well, I wanted to. I want to ask one more question. I mean, we could talk for a very long time about this. I feel, because I do feel like it's really common for people who are ace and either don't know it or do know it, who they land themselves in a relationship with someone who is not ace. And then one of the, one of the reasons why I'm talking about this on my show is that they'll show up and want to explore non monogamy as a strategy for getting everybody's relational needs met. Right. Because if somebody is ace and they were somewhere on the Ace spectrum, and they're in a part, in a long term partnership with someone who is not ace and they want to stay together, non monogamy of some flavor can help with that piece of things on multiple levels, actually. And as a person who is, like I said, I identify as Ace, and I have relatively low sexual desire, and I get a lot out of having multiple partnerships because my romantic and other relational needs are very high.
Libby Sinback:
My sexual needs are not very high, but I have other high emotional needs that are useful for me, getting met by multiple people. But where I'm going with this very lengthy thing that I'm saying is for people who are finding themselves partnered with someone who's ace and who they themselves are not, and they're going sort to of maybe this person's newly figuring this out and they're coming out to you, their partner, about it. What are some of the best ways that those folks can support their Ace partners or possibly ace partners?
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah. I think in recognizing that there are so many other forms of intimacy and pleasure that can be centered in the relationship instead of sexual intimacy and sexual pleasure, that you can still lean in to the relationship and find what is truly mutually pleasurable and enjoyable and connecting for you.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, I would also. I'll add to that that I think if I'm, if I, if I'm speaking to people who are partnered with Ace, people who are, again, on this journey of discovery and understanding about how they actually work, is to just say, I believe you. Yeah, you know, I believe you. I believe what's going on with you. I believe what you're saying, because I think it's so easy to make a lack of sexual interest about the person or about the relationship. And we do that a lot. I mean, there's thousands of books written about this that, like, if sex is not happening in your relationship, then that means there's something wrong with the relationship. And if someone is actually coming to you and saying I don't think it's you and I don't think it's us, I think it's how I am and how I'm wired and what's right for me.
Libby Sinback:
I believe you. Please, please. Like even again, even as that might become be fluid, there might be more discovery later. I think it's so important to land in that I believe you place because no good will come of anything else.
Aubri Lancaster:
Cody did some series on YouTube and TikTok around this and I definitely recommend going and looking them up. One of the things that I took away from their work was for that sort of a conversation which I wish I had had before I had to have that my conversation myself is to really think out what it is you want to say. You know, understand this for yourself first. As much as you may want to dive in and share this with your partner to really understand what it means for you first. And then when you do sit down to have that conversation, tell them how you need them to show up for you in the moment. And I think that leans into that. You know, I need you to believe me.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster:
And I need you to listen to what I'm going to tell you without trying to dissect it or, or make it about you. Yeah, yeah. Whatever it is that you need in that moment. You know, that's of course intensely personal as well.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster:
But have that thought rather than just opening yourself bare, help them to know what you need from them.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, I think that's a good idea. And, you know, coming out, I mean, because now we're talking about like coming out to your partner as Ace and it's a similar advice that I give when you're polyamorous and you need to come out to somebody is the same kind of thing of getting clear on what you want to say first instead of just kind of blurting it and then hoping that it's going to go well because it's like, kind of, it's like dumping a puppy in your partner's lap and then expecting them to know what to do with it. You know, it's like they're just going to be like what? What?
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah, absolutely. And then I, I think that it then can be a question of, you know, not, not just finding what intimacy and pleasure you do enjoy, but also recognizing especially within a few physical dynamic, what do you actually enjoy and what would you prefer not to include? Because when we say, you know, if a person says that they are not, you know, they don't desire sex, well, what is sex? And what are all of the aspects that that may even include, especially in the more sensual type of experiences? Like, I love massage. I would take a massage every single day ever. Obviously, some people feel that way about sex, so I can kind of relate on that level, but I don't need it to have any sort of arousing component at all.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, and I think that that's where if you're partnered with someone and you have this difference in your. Orient your sexual orientation around whether one of. One of you is Ace and one of you is more, allo, you can. It's an opportunity to get creative, I think, on your connection, and at the same time, I just want to name that for that allo person. You might need to have a safe place to talk about and process what you're going through that is outside of your partnership, whether you decide to remain monogamous or whether you decide to explore non monogamy or polyamory as, like, a quote unquote solution, which I guess I don't want to problematize this.
Aubri Lancaster:
It can be painful to learn that your priorities in a relationship are not the same as your partner's.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster:
And the things that you value in the relationship are not the same of your partner's. And we have so much social pressure to define ourselves by our virility or ability to be, you know, sexually desirable that that can be a very painful experience for the partner. And, yeah, they need an outlet that is not throwing it back on the person that just came out to them.
Libby Sinback:
Exactly. Especially, you know, there. I mean, as a person who has felt this on with multiple partners, at the same time, feeling like I have to fulfill people's sexual needs and feeling a tremendous amount of guilt about that and then trusting myself that it would not be right for me to do that and that that actually is unavailable and, like, holding that and you don't want. I mean, and I've just. I've seen multiple relationships of clients of mine who. Where one of them is ace and one of them is not. And like that, that pressure to make it better, that the ace person tends to feel either make it better by pushing themselves to be sexual or pushing themselves to allow their partner to make radical changes to their relationship structure before they're ready for that. And I think going slow, respecting both people's identities and experiences and needs is really important.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster:
Emily Ngoski's new book, come together. I think is very useful in this context, in that she really emphasizes centering pleasure and only having sex that you both enjoy. And she says at one point, what if sex you don't enjoy was never even on the table?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's so important. And there's lots of different ways to enjoy sex, too, and lots of different sex, like you pointed out earlier, that can be done outside of conventional heterosexual penis and vagina sex. That's only like one of like 80,000 different ways to have sex. And you can be ace and not, I mean, some ace people are sex repulsed. And so no sex is going to be the sex that's going to be pleasurable. But I think there are a lot of ace people who. There are some kinds of sex that can be enjoyable.
Aubri Lancaster:
They're indifferent or they're favorable to certain kinds. Absolutely. And the performance, you know, we have this social understanding that, you know, enthusiastic consent. You have to be all in or. No, it's. No, but I don't. I don't. My analogy is I don't like cooking.
Aubri Lancaster:
I do not enjoy cooking. This is not a pleasurable experience for me to cook. But I do get pleasure out of the satisfaction of knowing that I have made food that is good for my body, is good for my partner's body. I get satisfaction when they enjoy it. So you can get pleasure and enjoyment out of other people's enjoyment. And that's still okay as long as that pressure is not there. As long as you're not there freely given.
Libby Sinback:
Yep. And as long as you're not in that place of, like, endurance or toleration, like, where it's actively causing you harm.
Aubri Lancaster:
Absolutely.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster:
There's a difference between a favor and a chore.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. There's a difference between. You don't. Not all sex has to be wanted. You can be in the willing place, but the have to coercion place. Nah. Nope.
Aubri Lancaster:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. I could. We could go on, but I feel like we need to wrap up from here. Um, but who knows? This might be the start of a. We might need a part two at some point, because I just. I feel like there's so much richness here.
Aubri Lancaster:
There's a reason. I have a six hour training on this subject.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, that's what I was going to get to next, which is for people who this has been a teaser and they want more. Where can they get more of what you have to offer?
Aubri Lancaster:
Yeah. So my website is acesseducation.com and you can sign up for my newsletter, my waiting list on workshops. I do workshops periodically in general, and then I have a quarterly training that's 6 hours, primarily geared towards sexuality professionals and therapists, but not exclusive to I always welcome anybody who wants to attend. You're welcome to sign up for that. And then I also offer free content on instagram @acesexeducation
Libby Sinback:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here, Aubrey. I've really, really enjoyed our conversation.
