How Do I Know if I'm Poly?
Libby is joined by Multiamory's Dedeker Winston to answer a listener who asks two questions: how do I know if I'm polyamorous? And how should I go about dating if I'm not sure?
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Transcript
Libby:
Making polyamory work listeners. I am so excited to have a guest on my show today, and we're going to answer one of my listener questions. And our guest today is Dedeker Winston of the multiamory podcast. So Dedeker is in addition to a fantastic podcaster with the other two folks that do the multiamory podcast. She's also a relationship coach and a writer and an advocate for polyamory and non-traditional relationships. And she also is an author and wrote the smart girls guide to polyamory everything you need to know about open relationships, non-monogamy, and alternative love. And it is a great book. She's also got another book coming out soon that is called multiamory essential tools for modern relationships. And I think that's coming out in March, 2023.
Dedeker:
Yes. March of 2023, super excited. Oh, so
Libby:
Excited. Love a good tool kit.
Dedeker:
Yeah, definitely. It's I mean, it's been so exciting. It's been a really real challenge for me because I mean, my first book, I just wrote solo and then this one is co-authored with my two co-hosts and they are just the most amazing people in the world to work with. Obviously we've been podcasting together for like eight years and also it's challenging my micromanaging and controlling tendencies. So it's a real learning journey for everyone involved.
Libby:
Eight years. You guys have been doing the military podcast for eight years.
Dedeker:
Yeah, I think in about a week or maybe two weeks, it'll be officially eight years that we've been recording the podcast. Wow. I know when in podcasting years that is like 200 years. Yeah,
Libby:
Actually I was gonna say that's like ancient
Dedeker:
It's so true.
Libby:
Wow. Well, that's, that's quite an accomplishment. I bet that's really exciting to be coming up on yet another anniversary. And I'm so glad that you're here joining with me in my podcast, which has been around for three years.
Dedeker:
Oh, that's still that's okay. That's still significant in podcasting years because I don't know what the statistics are, but I'm pretty sure the majority of podcasts pod fade within the first six months or so, you know, people dive in and then realize how much freaking work this Is.
Libby:
Tell me about it. Have you noticed my, my most recent four month hiatus I did. Uwell, I'm just really excited to have you here. And uI feel really lucky that you and I have gotten to connect just between the two of us over the past couple years,during the pandemic, you know, I reached out to you, I was like, Hey, let's, let's be relationship coach colleagues together. And it's been really just a delight to get to know you and to connect. And so I'm so glad you're here. We're gonna answer this listener question together. So this question is,from someone who is wondering, how do you know if you're polyamorous or not? So,the listener says I am a 33 year old male that recently got out of a 14 year long monogamous relationship and an eight year long marriage in my new chapter of self discovery.
Libby:
I spent time dating lots of different women and found that I am a far more intense and open lover than I thought. And wouldn't feel guilty being romantically involved with two women at a time. It actually felt super right after some time. However, I started to wonder if there was something wrong with me. Was I just a cheater? Then the doom, from my lack of honesty with them started to settle in. I wanted so badly to be honest with them since I cared about them so much, and the relationships had gotten pretty serious, but severely doubted that they would understand. I reached out and spoke with my sister about my predicament. And she said something that changed my perspective. Do you think you might be polyamorous? She asked, I began to do my research, found your podcast and really wished I had discovered it sooner.
Libby:
When I was finally honest with my relationships, it broke their hearts and being an empath, the pain I had caused them more heavy on my heart. Obviously their anger and feelings of betrayal were completely valid. I wasn't honest with them about having other relationships, my lateness in discovering polyamory and lack of honesty throughout the process left all three of us heartbroken. I wish I could say otherwise, but I'm still not sure if I am indeed polyamorous. I need some help. So my questions to you are, I feel like continuing to date is part of the process of discovering if you are truly polyamorous, but how can I enter into future relationships with more grace without defined dating preferences? And also what general advice can you give to someone who is wondering if they're polyamorous or not? In retrospect, I know now a big part of the answer must be honesty through transformation. I feel like a lot of your listeners might be going through something similar. Thank you so much. And I absolutely love your podcast.
Dedeker:
So at first blush, when we, I first read this question, I didn't do the math and realized that, oh, okay. 33 years old, 14 year long monogamous relationship. So as in, was in a monogamous relationship since very, very young since what that's like 19, 20. Yeah. Or so And so what that means is I'm assuming this person has gone through some life stage transitions in the meantime. However, now it's kind of like a whole new learning process, right. You know, when we are dating, when we're 18, 19, 20, you're not really good at dating, right. You don't have a ton of dating experience, a ton of adult dating experience. And so you kind of stumble through that and figure that out. And I think the same thing is gonna happen here. Right. And this story, and I really wanna give prop, give props to this person for being able to not only be honest about what happened, but also be honest with the person, the people that they were dating, you know, to me, I chalk this up to oh, kind of similar to maybe the big mess up that I would've made when I was 19. Right. When I just didn't know
Libby:
Well, and that's what I was thinking too, as I was reading it, I was thinking, you know, first of all, like, yeah, he made a mistake, but as you pointed out, like if he was in a one relationship for pretty much the entirety of his twenties and into his thirties, he really, I would say doesn't have any like adult dating experience at all. So it makes total sense to me that, that there would be some fuckups there.
Dedeker:
Right, right.
Libby:
Yeah.
Dedeker:
So definitely wanna offer that grace. And again, also you win back so many points by at least coming clean. Right. Cause I think a lot of people wouldn't
Libby:
Well, and also like, I guess I wanna put out there that yeah, of course he doesn't know he's polyamorous. There's probably so much that he doesn't know about himself. Just even as a dater, you know, there's a lot to figure out. And I think, you know, he even said in the, in the question, like I am in this phase of self discovery and that makes total sense.
Dedeker:
Right. Yeah. So I do get clients to my own practice who come in with similar questions where I think the perception is okay. I see these people who know for sure they're non monogamous or know for sure they're polyamorous. Maybe they've been dating polyamorous for years already. They already have multiple partners. And so maybe there's a certain, certain aspect to dating for them. That's easier cause they're just like, this is who I am and this is what I can offer. And I can just be very upfront about that from the beginning. And it does leave out a number of people who are in a similar transition and discovery process of, well, maybe I'm polyamorous, but maybe I'm not, I don't feel like I can slap that label on me to make dating easier or to tell people right away that I'm committed to this when I'm not sure, but how do I still date in a way that is ethical?
Dedeker:
And I think that really the best thing that you can do in this situation is just to communicate directly. And honestly it sounds like this person got a taste of that, of going through that of kind of sitting with the awkward, painful honesty at the end of the day. And the thing though that I wanna caution people about is I do think that in we'll call it traditional dating the dating scene probably for the last 5, 10, 15 years or so. There is a little bit of, I see it as kind of like often millennials when they're dating, we only have two scripts to follow and either it's the, you're a casual hookup script or it's you might be my soulmate script and we go into dating and the quote unquote coolest thing to do is to be very non-committal and to start from a place of assuming it's gonna be on the casual script, you know?
Dedeker:
Right. It's gonna be casual, low drama. And a lot of the traditional dating game is trying to jockey and trying to see,when are we flipping scripts? Am I on the same script as, as this other person? Cause if I'm on the wrong script, am I gonna look like an idiot? Right. and so what that produces is this phenomenon where I've heard so many stories, people share, okay, we're on like the casual dating script. So that means we're gonna be super cool and honest about the fact like, oh yeah, we're seeing other people, like I'm not a weirdo. Who's like super into you. I didn't like go delete all my datings apps as soon as I met you. Like, no, I'm cool. So don't worry, we're seeing other people and we're cool with it. And sometimes people in this listener's position of like still trying to figure out, am I non monogamous? Am I polyamorous or not? Can take that interaction as, oh yeah. I've communicated that I'm seeing multiple people. They're seeing multiple people. It's safe. Everyone's on board and it's okay. But
Libby:
Yeah, that's not the same thing as being monogamous or polyamorous. It's not the same.
Libby:
Yes, because there's still an assumption underneath the ultimate place we're headed is monogamy eventually. Whereas in this case he's like, I'm really not sure that this is where I'm ever gonna head.
Dedeker:
Yes. And it's hard though, because again, with these traditional, the, you know, the two scripts that we getif you, for a lot of people, if you suggest, oh, I don't know if I'm into monogamy. That means, oh, we're stuck in the casual dating track and there's not gonna allow to be any emotions, any intimacy, any affection. It's just gonna be casual buddies from now until the end of the time. And, and we can't jump out at that, which it sounds like this person is not necessarily interested in. It sounds like they are interested in being emotionally and romantically involved with multiple people. so I do think that, you know, people feel hesitant about saying, yes, I'm 100% polyamorous. I'm committed to being non monogamous. I know that that's the case about me. If that's not actually true for you, I do like to encourage people to do some exploration around what are the things that you do know? Right. Mm. So sometimes people who come into my practice who are confused, who are not sure who are exploring. Sometimes they will have things that they do know. They do know. I can't do another 14 year long monogamous relationship. You know, they do know I can't do this kind of behavior. I can't date this kind of person. I can't date someone whose values don't match mine.
Libby:
I'm not looking to get married right away. I don't want kids.
Dedeker:
Yeah. I don't want kids. I don't wanna co-habit with someone at least not for the next 10 years or, or whatever it is. Right. And so sometimes you can start there of knowing what it is that you do know. And part of that may be, you know, I'm not committed to polyamory at this point, but I am committed to discovering this and I am committed to exploring this. And so what that means for me is it looks like XYZ. It looks like I do actively date multiple people. And I do actively communicate with those people about who else I'm dating. I do proactively communicate about my safer sex practices. You know, whatever it is that it is for you, what kind of behaviors this person can expect from you as you're exploring this.
Libby:
Yeah. I love that. That's just figure out what you do know and then communicate it as clearly as possible with the understanding that it's not gonna be perfect. Right. exactly.
Dedeker:
You're still, you're still, you know, you're back to 19 year old dating in a, in a sort of metaphorical sense. It's not gonna be perfect.
Libby:
Well, and also you, you could communicate something to somebody as clearly as you can and they might still mishear you or they still might hear what they wanna hear or they still might think they can change you or there all kinds of stuff could happen there.
Dedeker:
Oh yeah. There's I think there's a classic example of people may hear that as a challenge.
Libby:
Yep,
Dedeker:
I think I heard the joke. Maybe this is me. I saw once that, what was it that if women, this is all about straight people, but like if women say, oh, I've never had an orgasm, men will automatically take that as a challenge. And if men say, oh, I've never been in love before women will automatically take that as a challenge. I mean, it's a little bit essentialist, but it does speak to a little bit of that phenomenon that like you said, Libby, people may hear what they wanna hear. Right.they may hear, oh, they just haven't met the right person yet. And, and so yeah, they may just apply the same. Okay. I got it. It's like a casual
Libby:
Or you're just going through a thing right now because you're out of this relationship. So, but you'll settle down eventually, you know, all the stories we can tell ourselves about that. I guess I wanna speak to like the cost of being as upfront and communicative about what you do know as you can, because, you know, I think that this person seems really interested and I wanna be ethical about this. I wanna be honest about this, this, I don't want to lead anybody on or hurt anybody. And you know, I think, you know, what we've just said is that like that's, that's still not impossible. Like you could still mess up and hurt somebody because they might have listened to you and taken it in and still not really believed you or believed what they wanted or whatever. But then there's the flip side of it, which I see a lot with particularly heterosexual, cisgender men in the dating scene is, and this happens with people who are partnered, who are trying to date.
Libby:
And it happens with people who are not partnered yet, who are dating, who are interested in non monogamy. They're afraid to be fully honest because they're worried about how that's gonna turn certain people off. And I think, especially with, again, cisgender men in the dating scene, there's a feeling of real scarcity. Like there are just not that many people who are gonna be interested in me. There are not that many people who are gonna wanna go out with me. And so I need to cast as wide a net as possible. And I don't want to create any deal breakers out of the gate with anybody by suggesting what you're suggesting, which is, tell the person everything that you can tell them about what the deal breakers might be. It's kind of the opposite of what I think. I see a lot of men in particular doing.
Libby:
I mean, and it's not just men. I don't wanna be gender essentialist either, but I think I see it more with men and especially with online dating, because there is that like feeling of, I have to fight for every single possible person to ever be interested in me ever. And I don't wanna give them any reason to say no to me and I wanna put my best foot forward. And you know, I wanna speak to that because I really, I want you to know that I get it. Like I totally, I rock the feeling of being afraid that if you put all of your deal breakers out there, you're just not gonna meet anybody. And you're just gonna get rejected out of the gate. And that nobody really wants to date a guy who wants to date multiple women as a like lifestyle choice.
Libby:
And first of all, that's not true. We know that's not true because there are a lot of men who are doing that. There are a lot of people who are doing that and they're very successful in their relationships. So, and, and they're not like radically more successful or more attractive or anything like that than your average person. And, and we both know that just from our experience, but this person might not know that, but I just gotta let them take, take my word for it. it is really a thing that people can do. And there will be people out there that are for you. And it's a little bit like a confirmation bias. If you don't put out there who you are and then eventually you do, you will get rejected and then you'll go, well, of course, then nobody wants somebody who wants to do what I wanna do. Whereas if you put it out there from the get go, yes, the, the honest truth is you will probably have more people who will not match with you, who will swipe, what does it swipe left? Is it swipe left when you don't swipe in
Dedeker:
Whatever direction is the bad direction?
Libby:
there are gonna be people who aren't gonna, who aren't gonna match with you, who are, who are gonna, when you finally tell them what you're up for and what you're not up for and where you are in your journey are gonna say, that's not, for me. There are gonna be more people who do that because non monogamy is still not what everybody wants to do. It's definitely, I think acceptance is growing, especially with younger folks, but I think it's still, it's still not the mainstream and not the norm. So, but I wanna say that even though you will get more rejections, the people who are down with that are well, they're the best people. No but they're, but they're the people that you want. They're the people you wanna be going on a date with, because they're gonna be, first of all, hopefully also open with honest and straightforward communication. They're gonna give it back to you and they're gonna be really grateful that you're giving it to them. And this, these are the people where you're really gonna be able to find out.
Dedeker:
Yeah, that's true. It's and I will say that although I have had friends with a lot of CS straight men and have dated many CS straight men where I've seen that phenomenon take place that I will say I went through it too, in my own polyamorous journey. You know, I went through a period of a couple years, my, my own years of discovery, where I felt like I was the one who also left a bunch of broken hearts. , I mean, I wasn't totally unscathed in that, but it, it was that same thing where I was too scared to be real honest with people about the implications of what it was that I wanted. I could kind of go halfway. I could kind of be like I don't, I don't, I think maybe no, I don't, you know, I don't know. And, but I just could never be totally honest about what that would actually mean.
Dedeker:
And it did set me up for just like a lot more heartbreak than if I had just been rejected by people out the gate. Right. And that's really hard for us as human beings to think about cost and risk and cost upfront versus cost down the road and things like that. But yes, can promise that by hedging, by hemming and highing, by not being honest, like you're setting up both of you or multiple people to have a higher chance of having your heart broken. And what I found after I was sick of that cycle, when I did finally just say fine, screw it. Like, I'm just gonna be really point blank, honest with people about who I am and how I wanna date and what that means. Yeah. And I did get rejection, but that was like, it was finally the moment where suddenly the right people showed up in my life and that wasn't anything magical.
Dedeker:
That wasn't about me manifesting. That was literally about just taking some ownership of who I was and then I could finally filter to the right people. And again, it's not to say, oh, I found the right people. And then it's just been utopic bliss since then. yeah. There was still a learning process after that. Right. Yeah. You know, of the best ways to do this and who do I actually gel with and how do I tackle now these different other awkward, honest conversations that I have to have, but yeah, exactly what Libby said that you're not gonna have a good experiment in whether or not polyamory is for you. If you're with someone where even right out the gate, you are having to kind of try to sell them on it, on something you're not 100% sold on.
Libby:
Right. Well, and, and the, I love that you said that you've had that experience too, and that, and the cost that that had for you. And I love what you said when you said, like, when I finally just was upfront about who I was suddenly, the people started showing up who were like, yeah, I want that. And that's what I often say is it's like, if you finally fully shine your actual light, the light that is you, and this is, this is I think just good dating advice in general. Like, not just for figuring out if you're polyamorous or finding people who wanna date multiple people, but if you just shine your light as the unique person, is that is you and are really, really clear about what people are getting, what they're not gonna get. If they're connected to you, like, yes, there are some people who are gonna look at that light and go, whoa, not for me.
Libby:
But the thing is the people who want that are also having a hard time finding it. And so when you're clear, they're like, it, it really does. It really does draw the people to you who are looking for that. And so by hedging and, and, and hemming and hawing, you're also really turning off those people who are looking for you, who are looking to be in discovery with you, who are looking to be more open, all of that kind of thing. So I'm really glad that you, you said that and, and you're right. Yeah. it, the journey continues from there
Dedeker:
Yeah. There are people who want to date you in this stage of the journey, right? Yeah. Even though you're here and you're not 100% sure, like there are people who want someone like you, who is open and honest about where they are at, and they're willing to explore dating, not just on autopilot or just following the default. So yeah. All that, to encourage that, like the cost of the honesty is, is worth it, promise you.
Libby:
Yeah. That's, that's been my experience. Like, I don't have it. Like, there are more people that I could date than I have time for Yeah. And, and like, and like, you know, I'm, I, you can't see my face, but you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm 43 years old. I'm I have a mom of two kids. I have a husband, I have another partner. I have another, I have two other partners. And like, I'm not like, I'm not like, you know, there's a lot of people that would just be a hard, no, to me, very quickly based on all of these things, but I still there's. There are plenty of people.for me, And so for someone who's significantly younger and still has a lot of life creation that they could do with another partner, they're still gonna find people, you know? I think so. I mean, I see it as like, kind of like sales, you know you really wanna find the people who wanna buy your product. You don't wanna, unless your toilet paper, unless that's your product and everybody needs toilet paper. Everybody does not need you. You don't wanna be appealing to everybody. You wanna be appealing to your like, slice of the pie, which is usually very small. And I think that's true for everybody.
Dedeker:
That is interesting though, that I do think that, I mean, and this is, this is maybe a bigger conversation or a bigger topic for another time, but we do get a lot of cultural messaging around desirability and attractiveness that it's like, you should be desirable to all people all the time.
Libby:
Yeah. Right. That's a lie yeah.Well, so, I mean, I think that maybe addresses the first question of like, how do I do this in a way that is gracious while I still don't know and then the second question is, how do I know?
Dedeker:
Yeah. Goodness. How do any of us know really is all that's yeah. That's an exaggeration. Yeah. there's a full spectrum of people in the no monogamous community. There's people who are, wait, can I break in? They want, yeah,
Libby:
I wanna break in. I wanna ask you a question. Dedicator how did you know
Dedeker:
Boy? Oh boy. Well,
Dedeker:
I've always struggled whenever. I whenever I kind of tell my polyamory origin story, because it is a little bit of both for me, if I'm being quite honest, a little bit of both like, oh yeah. I can look back and see how I felt this way for a lot of my life, or kind of had these feelings or these longings. And also it was still a process where I wasn't sure if this was me, right. Yeah. It was a little bit of both. And so, you know, when I think back about when I was in high school, when I was like first exploring adult relationships and having that first experience of being in a monogamous relationship, but still being attracted to someone else, still developing a crush on someone else and interpreting that as I am broken, there's something wrong with me. Right.
Dedeker:
And so looking back and realizing, oh, I definitely had the capacity for this and even had fantasies about this, but it was such a nonstarter that I didn't even, I didn't even entertain that. Right. I mean, I also was raised super evangelical Christian and the same thing happened with my sexuality where looking back, I'm like, oh, I had crushes on other girls, especially my teenage years, but I was raised in this culture that was like, that's not a thing. And so I didn't even go there. And so it's almost like a little bit of kind of retroactively piecing it together. But for me to be totally honest, it's almost a little bit of a similar story in the sense that I also had a friend who swooped in to be like, do you maybe wanna be in an open relationship? Have you consider that maybe that might be a better fit for you.
Dedeker:
And wow was initially a little bit offended by the suggestion because I still had that story of no non monogamy and open relationships or people who are for people who are commitment phobic or they're sex addicts, or they're just casually dating, or they don't actually love their partners. Like, and that's not me, but I was still intrigued enough to explore it. So, so I don't know. I think for me, it did take until I finally got over my own and could be open with people about what I wanted. And then I finally actually started dating people who wanted the same things. Yeah. Then I was like, oh, here I am. This feels way better than any relationship I've ever had in my entire life. Like all of my history of monogamy, this feels right. And this feels more like me that helped. I will say, I do think I had a little bit of a moment before that my very, very first open relationship experience where I opened up a monogamous relationship , which is inherently tough for pretty much everybody.
Dedeker:
And that imploded about six months later. Okay. Cause we were like 22 and didn't know how to communicate and all those things. And there was a moment when that happened, where after the breakup, I realized, wow, that really sucked. And that was really hard. And I wanna find out how to do this better. Right. It wasn't oh God, I'm never touching open relationships again. It was, there was still a part of this that felt good. And I need to figure out how to do this better. So that was maybe a key for myself. I mean, looking into this person's question. Maybe I don't wanna read into it too much, but I think the fact that the person was motivated enough, to be honest with these people, even though he knew it was gonna hurt their feelings. And even though it caused to fall out, I'm just like, okay, clearly there's some sort of value underneath this.
Dedeker:
That's really potent for this person. Right. Because this is a situation that I think people who are doing traditional dating do run into quite a lot. And it's just the normal juggle of like, well, let me compare one to the other and figure out who might be a better match in the long run and then kind of come up with a convenient excuse to break up with or ghost the other person. Right. But you didn't do that. And so that's not necessarily a marker of, oh, you're 100% polyamorous, but it's clear that there's something intrinsic in you that was willing to go through this discomfort in order to live in some kind of integrity. So I'm kind of like, there's some, there's some kind of clue there about something.
Libby:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and a thing that comes up for me is you're saying that is like, there was the gravitation toward, like, I think I can have these multiple relationships. I think I can have these multiple loves and wouldn't it be great if I could tell them about it and have that go? Well, I think, I think that's the experiential piece and that's the piece where like, you're feeling into your body, like, does this feel right to me? Does this, is this something that actually works for me? And then there's like, there's the other piece, which, you know, you kind of referenced when you talked about your upbringing and like your preconceived notions about what it means to want to date multiple people, which is more the, is this okay? Is this like within my value system, am I philosophically on board with the tenets of non monogamy or polyamory? Like, and that's like a whole separate thing, right. Because you can feel gravitated towards it, but then there's a lot of unpacking of how you've been taught and what you, what you used to think and really seeing if, what people who are polyamorous say about what it means to be polyamorous and how polyamorous relationships go and sort of the ethics behind it. Does that like line up with your own value system?
Dedeker:
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, maybe the first question there is also doing some work around just figuring out your value system, right?
Libby:
Yeah,
Dedeker:
Yeah, yeah. Which is not something that a lot of us sit down and do, we're not really taught to do that in school, but I know for myself doing that kind of work, whether it's, you know, you can find 600 exercises online or you could sit down with a therapist or whatever, you know, whatever your preference is, but every time I've done that, it's been so important for me to help guide big life decisions.
Libby:
Well, and also with that, figuring out your value system, like figuring out what role relationship is gonna have in your life because this person was married. And so do they want to get married again someday? Do they want to have children? Do they already have children? You know, that wasn't clear. And you know, when they think about like the expanse of their whole life, like thinking more long term, like, you know, you're at the end of your life, you look back on it. What kinds of decisions would you have wanted to make? What kind, what shape does your life wanna take? Because there's so many different ways you can have a life well lived. Right. And I think, you know, the tricky part is, you know, if you've been, you know, indoctrinated that there is only one life well lived, which is, you know, married, pick a fence, two kids, dog in the yard, whatever, you know, whatever that is.
Libby:
Which, you know, it, it varies depending on where you are culturally and stuff like that. But this, the, it, there's a lot of similarities of this is what a good life is. And you've already deviated from that because you're not married anymore. And now you're in the dating world. What do you wanna really create from the relationships that you are pursuing? Because, you know, if you, if, you know, for sure you wanna life partner, you want to cohabit, you wanna share finances. And again, I think that you're right, that's something that it's not very common for people to do. We kind of do it more like this is what, this is just what we do. This is just, you don't really question it. You don't really piece it together for yourself of what you, as an individual want. And of course that is a thing that us non monogamous do because we have to we have to create it for ourselves, but you don't have to be monogamous or non monogamous to create clear a clear picture of what you wanna build in your relational landscape.
Libby:
Like maybe, maybe you don't wanna get married, but maybe you do wanna have a life partner and you're gonna jet off to see the world together. And you're gonna be really deeply committed, but you're never gonna live together and you're never gonna get married and you're not gonna have kids, or maybe you do wanna get married and have kids, but you still wanna have other partners in the picture. And you know, there's so many just different ways. You can construct things. And I think getting clear on like, why am I dating? Do I just want a sex partner? Do I want emotional intimacy? Do I want to, you know, go build a commune with this person? Do I want a business partner? Like, what is it I want, that's another place of inquiry that I think would give you a lot of sense as to whether polyamory would fit in with what you're trying to create.
Dedeker:
And unfortunately this is slowly changing, but again, if you're interested in no monogamy and polyamory, you have to seek out models. They're not just presented to you. The way that monogamy is, the reality is there's a lot of different versions of monogamy. Whether it's we're married, we're gonna live together separately. We're gonna have kids, we're not gonna have kids. We're gonna go be nomads and travel together. You know, those all fall under the umbrella of types of monogamy for people, but those models are shown to us quite a bit. And right now you still need to go seek out models. And it sounds like this listener's already on that track. If they were doing some seeking and found the podcast, and now they're here clearly seems like that's, that's part of that. And so that means go and read the books, go look at the communities, smaller communities, probably gonna be better than, than Libby. You were talking about the 10,000 person Facebook group earlier. They don't tend to be great. You know, find mentors and friends. Yeah. And I mean, I say that as though is just like the easiest thing to just like order up on Uber eats or whatever. Like it does take investment. It does take time because
Libby:
Those are relationships too. You have to actually like connect with humans without an any kind of agenda. Other than I just wanna know what, what your life is like.
Dedeker:
Yeah, definitely. And I do think right now, I mean, you can, I mean, maybe this is weird. If you can find a way to not be weird about this, you can even ask your friends of like, do they know someone who is non monogamous? And the fortunate thing is, as people are becoming more comfortable being out about this, with their inner circle or on social media or whatever it is, chances are increasing that you at least know someone who knows someone who is non monogamous. Yeah. And you can at least connect with them. You can be, you can be respectful. You don't have to be like, let me grill you 600 questions about your life. But yes, it's like the, the, the more that you can expose yourself just to the many different ways that people do this. And you can look into meetup groups.
Dedeker:
If you're in an area that has meetup groups and you can attend in person events, ideally right out the gate, not without the intention of like trying to find someone to date, but it's literally about like, just meet other non monogamous people. and see what they're like, and what are the things that they talk about and how is it that they practice. And so basically, I refer to this as like data collection, you know, you're being like a scientist here where you're, you're getting as much data as you possibly can. And I sometimes also like to encourage folks while they're doing this is to find some way to keep track of how you respond to all this data. This could be a separate journal. It could be a note on your phone. It could be part of your diary, whatever it is. But making notes of when I went to this no monogamy meetup group, what were my impressions? What were the feelings that came up within me? what were the physical sensations that came up with me when I had this conversation with this person, when I watched this documentary or, or read this book or whatever, like, what were the things that excited me? What were the things that scared me? again, without judgment, literally just keeping a log of like the secondary data of how this all lands on you.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and I think that similar to that one thing that sort of came up for me as I was reading this question was he knows he can date multiple people, but does he know that he could date someone who's dating multiple people? Yeah. Cause
Dedeker:
That's the real kicker. Yeah.
Libby:
Well, cause that, cause that happens a lot. Like I know I'm comfortable with, with being polyamorous, but it, I'm not, I don't feel safe and comfortable with my partner being polyamorous. And this is where, you know, people end up even sometimes creating these relationships that are very like lopsided. And so I think that that's another thing to maybe before you get into a relationship and are in it, which I mean, there again, there's no way to Bulletproof yourself from difficult feelings and difficult experiences and discomfort, but maybe like do some visualization of what it might be like for a person that you are in love with that you are very excited about and oh, they have, have another partner or they start dating another partner after you've been together for a little while. Because I think that if you can kind of put yourself in that position, not only will it help you figure out if like you can play like play both sides, you know?
Libby:
But the other thing that it will help you is it'll help you understand what it will be like for your partner and what things you might want to be thinking about what they might want from you. You know, you can think about like, because I think if you put yourself in the shoes of, of just you dating multiple people and all this doesn't feel wrong, this feels fine. that's, that's actually a little bit easier, I think, than putting yourself in the shoes of someone who, you know, is dating multiple people, including you. I just, it, I think it's and he says, he's an iPath. So hopefully he can, like, he can do that, like that, putting himself in other people's shoes thing pretty easily, but that , but I think that would be pretty necessary because, you know, I do rec I don't wanna like downplay the necessity of unpacking our own shame stories around wanting multiple partners. I don't wanna downplay how important it is to like trust yourself within multiple relationships. But there is the whole other layer of dealing with jealousy, dealing with trusting your partners, dealing with other people in your landscape that you might not be choosing.
Dedeker:
Yeah. That's, that's very wise. And I think that the reality of Non-monogamy and polyamory is sometimes , it's a weird feast or famine. And so sometimes thinking about the famine side, quote unquote famine side, where it's like, I've been trying to date and everything's been falling flat and I do have this other partner and they're dating and, and they're getting like ten first dates in a month. And just like, it doesn't mean that when you think about it, it has to feel good to you. But it's, I think it's kind of thinking about like what I wanna just like pull the plug and right. Bring everything to description.
Libby:
Could you tolerate that?
Dedeker:
Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's like, like, do you, is there enough here for you to get you through that discomfort of the fact that it may not always be 100% going your way?
Libby:
yeah.
Dedeker:
Last thing that I did wanna mention. Yeah. Kind of funny just for, for this question of am I polyamorous or not? I don't know. And this is for the people who have like the analytical brains that wanna take a Cosmo quiz and find out but Kathy Labriola, who is a counselor based in the bay area, who's been polyamorous for decades and works with a lot of folks in this community. She's written several books. She's a fantastic resource in her jealousy workbook. She has a little exercise about clarifying your relationship orientation. And I have used this with a couple clients. And of course it's the kind of thing we're like, like, you know, a quiz is not gonna tell you empirically 100% who you are and what you want. If you get a result, you didn't expect it doesn't mean it's set in stone.
Dedeker:
What I more like about this exercise is just the questions that she poses, you know? So she has you think about, you know, your experiencing your last monogamous relationship and asking questions. Like, did you think that you were able to be honest with your partner about your feelings and needs? Did you feel like the two of you were a good team? Did you enjoy spending most or all of your free time with this person and then, and the questions kind of go on from there and then to start thinking about non monogamous situations and, and it's just really good at rooting out your feelings and thoughts. And I think this could be a good supplement to some of that visualizing work as well. So again, if you look up Kathy Labriola, if you look up the jealousy workbook, you'll find that exercise
Libby:
and the jealousy workbook is, is great. I've I've known a lot of people who have really benefited from it in general. And so I think like also if you want, I mean, there's other like exercises in there of just in like going to the thing that I was saying earlier of just like imagining what would it be like if this thing happened with your partner, you did this thing or that thing, she goes into stuff like that too. So I think that's, that's a solid investment, I would say yes. If you're, even if you're just curious.
Dedeker:
Yeah, definitely
Libby:
That agree. This has been so great. that has
Dedeker:
Been fantastic. I would love to talk about this person's life for like two more hours.
Libby:
Right. Well, and you know, we, we get, we get the benefit of being where we are in our journeys to be sitting on the sidelines going, this is the exact way that you would do when, like, do we do the, do we do it this way? but you know, you get the benefit of, of of our experience, but also it's, I think I would like to close by saying that as, as you've heard from Dedeker and in other times where I've spoken about my personal experience, you've heard from me, this is also a messy process. Like there's no like magic thing that is gonna make, you know, for sure who you are and make you make, you know, for sure whether you've met the right people who wanna do what you wanna do with you. Like it, it really is a lot of trial and error. It's a lot of trying things on and seeing if they fit and sometimes they don't and you go down some cul-de-sacs It, I wanna normalize that, that is part of the process. And that doesn't mean you're doing it wrong and there is no perfect way to do it. And so I guess like embrace the messiness too, and be compassionate with yourself. If you do go down a particular direction and then find out that wasn't for me, you know?
Dedeker:
Yeah. I think that, I don't know, it's unfortunate that in our discovery process of figuring out who we are as adults, like, we, we all bump up into each other, right. yeah. The best way, the most poetic and romantic way that I can think of was actually a Buddhist nun told me this. And the idea is that when we enter into any kind of community, whether that's in romantic community with your partner or partners, or with your roommates or with your family, that we're all rocks in a Tumblr and we bump into each other and chip off little parts. And ideally at the end of it, we become a little bit more refined, a little bit more gentle, a little bit more smooth, a little bit better able to gel with each other without causing damage. So, yeah, that makes me think of, of, you know, like what you were saying earlier about, you know, handling the rejection and handling the filtering that that is part of this process as well. Yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. And, and yeah, obviously we wanna do the best we can to be as loving and kind as we can to other people in the process, but like, don't beat yourself up if you mess up, I guess, is the thing I would say do your best and, you know, don't be afraid to ask for help whether that's phoning a friend or whether that's, you know, talking to talking to a, an expert or a mentor or something like that as well. I think that there are a lot of people out there who are really willing to step up and support someone who's in your situation. If you're just willing to, to ask. Yeah. So, and I'm glad you asked us, so thanks for the question and thank you, Dedeker for joining me. And I guess, is there any, is there anything you wanna say about anything you're up to I know that you got the book coming out, but is there anything you wanna share with our listeners?
Dedeker:
Yeah. Well, first of all, so glad to be here and to have this conversation, if people are interested in more of my work, you can go to dedekerwinston.com. You can find information about my book also about my coaching services. As we mentioned earlier, I also co-host the multi amory podcast. If you go to multiamory.com, you can find more info about that. And yes, our next book, multiamory essential tools for modern relationships is gonna be coming out in March of 2023. So if you go to multi, multiaemory.com/book, you can sign up for a mailing list to get updates about that.
Libby:
Well, and I hear you've got some quotes from some really great experts in there.
Dedeker:
Yeah. Yeah. Some real cool people showed up to be in that book. I'm super excited to share it with you specifically, so that, yeah.
Libby:
Yeah. Well, and I can share it with my clients too. Alright, well I don't actually know how to wrap this up at all. So I'm just gonna,
Dedeker:
We'll
Libby:
Just,
Dedeker:
I'm just gonna, we'll just leave it there.
