Community Care with Genevieve of Chill Polyamory
Libby is joined by Genevieve King of Chill Polyamory to discuss individualism, community care, and ways you can shift your mindset to ecological thinking within polyamorous (or not!) relationship structures.
Transcript
Libby Sinback:
Welcome. Welcome, Genevieve, to making polyamory work. I am so excited to have you here.
Genevieve King:
Thank you for having me.
Libby Sinback:
Yay. So my first question that I always ask folks when I have a guest on my show is just tell me about you, the human. Like, introduce yourself. Like, I've already talked a little bit about you in the intro, but I'd love to hear from. Directly from you. Like, what do you want to say about who you are?
Genevieve King:
Sure. I'm Genevieve. I'm. How old am I now? 37. I stopped counting. I've been non monogamous and polyamorous for twelve years, and I have been educating on it for about six years. My work in education is a lot of peer support. It's a lot of sharing my own experiences.
Genevieve King:
Do with it what you will, non prescriptive or diagnostic. And I'm also a cult survivor. I left cult 15 years ago or so, and I'm in recovery for disordered eating since 2002. So, yeah, a lot of my work also deals with, like, control environments, high control environments, or self, you know, self harm, self control. So it sort of intersects. It's all together of, like, anyone who relates to me. I'm happy to chat with you as, like, a, you know, and stand in bigger sister, essentially.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, and you also. You create. You've been stretching into creating some cool content about movies and tv and media representation for polyamory and non monogamy, and I'm super excited about more of that as well.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, in a past life, I had a career in film and tv. I was working from, like, ages 17 to 23 in that industry and have been editing videos. Like, I used to do VHS tape to tape edits when I was, like, ten or eleven, you know. So I've always really loved visual storytelling, which is why making TikToks and Instagram reels has always been fun. But now I'm going into YouTube. Chill.
Genevieve King:
Polyamory on YouTube as well, with the, like, long form video essays. Cause that's what I watch, you know, I don't have tv. I don't even have Netflix anymore. I just pretty much only watch YouTube. And I was like, well, this doesn't exist. I don't see people talking non monogamy in long form in film and tv analysis. So I said, well, why don't I do that? So I also wanted to have a little more fun.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So are you aiming to be like, the Lindsay Ellis of polyamory? I don't know.
Genevieve King:
I don't know. I mean, genre specific maybe, but nothing so thoroughly researched or academic, it's more of, like, here's my hot take of examples. And plus, I think, you know, examples are so bad, beneficial. You know, there's a lot that we can do in talking about theory, but I offer my own examples, but that's very limited to my experience. And so the nice thing about looking at film and tv non monogamy is we can critique people who aren't real and see an example and say, this is what I think is great. Here's what I think's messy, and they did wrong. And so that can hopefully be of service.
Libby Sinback:
Well, when I think about, like, storytelling and how important storytelling is to people figuring out themselves.
Genevieve King:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
Like, when you are looking for an idea of how you want to live or how you want to be, a place you would look is a film, a movie, a book, tv show. Like, those are obviously also entertainment. But I think sometimes we're also looking for, like, what are some possibilities of how my story could go? What are some ways that I could write my own story? And so that, that's, you know, that's why representation of all different kinds is so important. And, of course, non monogamous relationships get the short end of the stick most of the time. So I love the idea of that being something that is looked at more deeply, like, what's the story we're telling here? How can we look at that story differently? How can we not just go, oh, well, that's the only version of the story that we could have.
Genevieve King:
Yeah, it's so common for people to not really see models of other relationship structures. It's so common for people to enter monogamy with fairy tales in their head that they saw on screen from a young age, right. Of just like, this is how it should go. This is how you're supposed to do it. And so I think we internalize that. And so, yeah, seeing more examples and more models. But as well, I think a lot of, at least currently, a lot of non monogamy on screen is written by monogamous people. And so I want somebody to be speaking back to it to be like, wait a second, wait a second.
Genevieve King:
You know, like, at the very least, while it could be. While there's so many messy examples, there's so much triad focus of. Of, like, you know, FFM triads being, like, the only representation in so many spaces. It's like, can we add more to that conversation or can. Yeah, I got something to say. So. But I would love. I would love for more people to do it as well.
Genevieve King:
I'd love for there to be a lot more conversation on how we're shown to, you know, larger audiences who may not have ever met a non monogamous person.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Side note, there is a film that I watched in a film class when I was in college, and I can't remember the name of it, but I'll link it in the show notes because I actually think it was a good movie. It's this movie about. It's got Marlene Dietrich in it. So it's really old movie. And she is married and has a kid. And then I don't remember exactly the circumstances in which it happened, but she ended up having to leave her husband and she took her kid with her and they're like, on the road and they're like, you know, penniless and, like, riding in the back of train cars kind of thing. And then she becomes like this, or maybe she already was, this nightclub actor, whatever.
Libby Sinback:
And anyway, this. This wealthy patron of the nightclub act, like, falls in love with her and she falls in love with him and. But she's still married and apparently. So the movie, it's clear that she's in love with both of these men and both of them, like, she's in love with her husband and she's in love with the. And I think the wealthy guy is played by Cary Grant. I think so. Very attractive people in the movie. And apparently the original ending of the story, according to Marlene Dietrich, was that she ended up with both of them.
Genevieve King:
Wow.
Libby Sinback:
But they had to change it, of course, for the movie censors. So, you know, she had to, I think, end up with her husband at the end. But in the original script of the story, she ends up with both of them. And I was like, oh, I want that story.
Genevieve King:
Right. Wow, that's very cool.
Libby Sinback:
Like thirties or forties, like a long time ago. But, like, it was out there then. And I was just like. And again, that's inspiring to me to think, like, this isn't new. This isn't a new way of thinking. This isn't. This is just. There's an opening now culturally for it to be more acceptable.
Libby Sinback:
But there were other openings and there were other times and there were other places where, and other cultures, obviously, where non monogamy was perfectly. Not that radical.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. If anything, we're finding our way back to just more variety of norms. We're undoing what a lot of the singular, enforced, mononormative, cishet, normative, colonial infrastructure. Now we're sort of trying to undo that and open up the variety of ways that humanity looks. And like you said, a lot of cultures, like, a lot of forms of non monogamy are so old, so, like millennia old. And I love that. Yeah. We're not enforcing people to betray themselves or hide themselves as much anymore.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, and I want to get into that topic a little bit more because I will tell you as a, as a coach myself. And so I work with clients in all types of configurations, and folks will reach out to me. And a recurring theme that I hear, and it comes up in two different ways. One recurring theme that I have are people who are really looking for something different than the escalator, monogamous family model, and they're really trying to create something different for themselves. And they're trying to create something different for themselves. That doesn't mean that they're free floating and unconnected and unsupported. Right.
Libby Sinback:
That they have something that's rooted, that's rich, whether it's romantic relationships or chosen family, community or what have you. And they are kind of bumping up against people that partner with them that are like, you should live with me, you should do this. All of the kind of, they want to ride the escalator and they're having a hard time holding their own. So I have those folks that sometimes work with me where it's like, no, you can do what you want. You know, let's think about how do you create what you want and find the people that are going to want to do that with you? So that's one group of people, and then there's another group of people that are more in lifestyle like I am, which is, I'm a mom. I live in just outside of Atlanta, Georgia, so kind of in the suburbs, I have a, it's not exactly a nuclear family because I'm living with two partners and two kids, but it's, you know, it's as pretty close to a nuclear family as you can get, you know? And we have a single family home, and yet what we all long for is to be part of an interconnected community. Like, we want our village. Right? And a lot of, I've talked to a lot of couples, either couples or they're couples with kids who are longing for that village kind of thing.
Libby Sinback:
And I've had several of those folks that I talked to, like, seeking out non monogamy has been like a strategy to try to, like, build that village, to try to build more connections. And I think the reason why that's happening is why non monogamy looks like the way is because it's like, well, I built this chosen family through marriage or through part romantic partnership, romantic and sexual partnerships. So that's just how you do it. And so I just need to find more, like, partners, you know? But it just, what speaks to me is that there's this desire for community, for community care. You know, there's a lot on the Internet right now about looking for, like, a third place where everybody meets together. That's happening a lot. And I guess you've created a lot of content that speaks to that. Like, speaks to this idea that, like, it's not just about, like, shedding the layers of societal norms and stretching into your true identity or whatever, but it's more like, how do we create more connections across a broader spectrum? And how do we have not just these individualistic, like, pods, but how do we have, like, a broader.
Libby Sinback:
Be part of a broader community of care? Because that's where our collective liberation lies. And I guess I just want to talk about that.
Genevieve King:
Sure.
Libby Sinback:
Because I think that for me, where I struggle is the ideal is there, and then the practical execution of it, actualization of it, is hard. And I'd love to hear, because it seems like you're doing that in your life, and I guess I'd love to start there. Like, how is that playing out for you? Because you're in Germany, so you're not even in the United States. So there's probably a different ballgame just being in a different country. But I guess I'd just love to hear, like, how is that working for you to be in that? Like, I'm aiming for something that's more like that. Like, more like a community minded lifestyle.
Genevieve King:
Yeah, I mean, I think we run into a lot of structural barriers, you know, of what is being legislated, what is being incentivized. Right. Because I know people who want to live in a house with a lot of people, and there might be housing laws that say, nope, this isn't zoned for x number of people who aren't family legally. Right. And I have. So I've seen people get legally married.
Libby Sinback:
Does that happen in Germany?
Genevieve King:
In Germany, I'm still learning all of the laws here. I'm still learning the language. So there's a lot of complexity. I'm still discovering what's interesting here, and one of the reasons that I was interested to move one. I mean, I have my own heritage here that I'm sort of reconnecting with and learning more about, which is complicated. Um, but as well, I think just the nature of the country, there are some attitudes that are lingering, especially in Berlin, that are a bit more geared towards a communal care. And some practical examples are like they're. It's very normal here to have.
Genevieve King:
Speaking in Berlin anyway, to have just spaces on the street that are public sort of give and take. So anything that you want to give away, that's perfectly good, you just set it on this shelf, and people will come and take it if they want it, and they come and put their stuff right. And so it's this. Even if you don't see or meet or know the names of your neighbors, all of them, there is this support and this focus on trying to minimize waste. And, you know, and so I find that to be really beautiful. There are these giant buckets of water next to communal gardens where if you walk by and you see that something could use some love, you just pick up the can and you just water it and you walk on, you know, so there's this, like, real flow that I did not experience in the US, at least living in, you know, major cities especially, there was a lot more isolation that I experienced in the US, a lot more, you know, preoccupation with the self and self actualization and individualism that absolutely happens here, too.
Libby Sinback:
Right?
Genevieve King:
There's. I doubt there's any place that's utopian, but, yeah, I think there might be. I wanted to go to a place where there might be fewer barriers to the people themselves being able to imagine it, because that's the other thing, like you were saying, is like, you want these communal spaces, but it requires everybody to have similar goals and similar values. And if people are coming in saying, yes, I care about you, but that at the end of the day, they are their top priority, or their spouse is their top priority. You know, no shade, if that's like, how the things need to be constructed. But there can be a lot of theory not matching practice. And so building this network that you're describing, you know, it requires everybody involved to want that. And so there absolutely are, you know, longstanding communities of care that don't require polyamory.
Genevieve King:
I think a lot of times people do see it as a shortcut, like you mentioned of. Yeah, well, I, you know, and I think that my theory is that that speaks more to our, you know, idealizing of romance as more important than non romance. And so which practically, like, can be a reality for people if you're wanting to be as important as their spouse or something. Sometimes people won't even put you in that box of possible importance unless they feel romantically towards you. And so there is a lot that goes into creating this network is, like, kind of unlearning the idea that friends are less important or they are bonus people, you know? Like, actually. Yeah. Actually seeing everybody as valuable and worth investing in.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, and I wonder just. I have so many thoughts to share about that, just from my own experience. But I guess I'm curious, from your experience, you said before, like, sometimes there are, like, these structural barriers to really creating those communities of care with, you know, with friend networks, with chosen family, that kind of thing. But I guess I'm wondering just how is it playing out for you right now? If you're comfortable sharing, of course.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. So I got legally married to another partner for immigration purposes. And what was cool about that is it was negotiated with everybody that we were really close to. There was a talk of, like, okay, if this doesn't feel okay to people, it's not that we're asking everyone permission, but it was more of, like, how can we take care of you? How can we make sure everybody's taken care of? And this plan to sign this contract was to protect the partner and allow for immigration, and it legally gave him more rights and, you know, more like, access to stuff. And that can't really be ignored. And it also isn't inherently a bad thing. Like, it can be negotiated. And the other people that we were close to were like, okay, that doesn't really step on my toes at the moment, but what is a path to divorce if it ever seems like it isn't cool anymore? And not that they could then say, I want you to divorce.
Genevieve King:
Because we would still all assess as a team of, like, no, at the end of the day, risk of deportation still feels, like, not worth it. How else can we mitigate these imbalances? And so that was a very practical way that I saw navigating these structures play out, was, like, a lot of conversation and consideration, and everybody felt equally valued, even though legally they literally don't have as many rights. You know, I just want to interrupt.
Libby Sinback:
Here and just, like, pause you there, because that what you're just describing there sounds really radical, like, the idea that deciding to marry someone would be something that is a communal act. Like. And not just a communal act in the sense that, like, you know, a lot of times in weddings. Right. Well, you know, the couple will stand before the people attending there, which are usually their family and friends, and say, you know, do you support this couple and uplift them and their relationship? And are you going to hold them and, you know, all that kind of stuff, which I think is one form of, like, community support, but it still is, like, lifting up the couple as, like, the top thing, you know? But what you're talking about is, like, how can this decision to make this particular type of contract between these two people in a larger ecosystem still be caring for the whole ecosystem instead of actually elevating the couple above everybody else? Am I getting that right?
Genevieve King:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because we. I mean, I personally thought I would never marry. I just saw it go so poorly for both of my parents getting married and divorced three times each. And I was like, I'd rather not, like, can't we just love each other and keep the government out of it, you know? And, like. But the reality is, is, like, some of the stuff that we wanted to do, I wanted to move in. This partner was the only one who wanted to move with me.
Genevieve King:
I was like, this is a tool, like, that we could use is to make life easier, you know? And so. Yeah, but I think that's the thing. When. Whenever I'm talking about, like, challenging hierarchy, there's some hierarchy that we literally can't challenge unless we change the laws. And we. We within ourselves can at least include everyone that will be affected, include them in the conversation and say, like, how can I take care of you? How can we mitigate any repercussions, any side effects of this? And so that can still lead to everybody feeling valuable and having the floor to speak up, to be asked, how do you feel before a decision is finalized? Yeah. So that tends to be how we approach things. But I can give another anecdote of how it continues to play out in smaller ways, because, of course, you're not always navigating those big decisions.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Genevieve King:
There is an attitude among myself and my people that I'm closest to that's sort of like, even if we've not met someone who you're tight with, like, if they need help, and I can provide that, even if I don't know them, I trust, like, that they're in our network, so let's help them, right? There's this conceptualizing of, even if we don't, like, see each other every day, you mad or you're in our extended family. And so I was dating this woman for a few months, and we were on the train, and she got her phone stolen. She got her wallet taken, I think, too. And she was really distraught. And she is a single mom, and she was. I think she's, like, an educator and didn't like, have a high income, and the phone matters a lot. And so I came back to my partner, and I was like, hey, don't we have, like, an old iPhone that we've used sometimes for extra stuff? But, like, isn't it just sitting in a drawer and does it still work? And could we give it to her? And he didn't even think twice. He was like, yeah, absolutely.
Genevieve King:
He'd never met her. You know, I don't date her anymore, even, and I don't regret it. Like, we just gave her an iPhone because she needed one, you know? And that felt really beautiful to me, that, like, there was no question that from each according to ability, to each according to need, that value system is shared regardless of who we bring close. So that is how it continues to play out in those small interactions as well.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, I love that. And it's interesting, even as you highlight that kind of small thing, I think, well, I mean, that is how a lot of my community, the community that I do have, which is primarily through my kids these days. So, like, I'm friends with my kid friends parents, and. But, like, I find myself as a parent, and my kids are, you know, eight and ten as of this recording. And so they're in elementary school and still can't really be left alone for any length of time. Like, a short period of time. Yes, because they're, like, they're old enough that, like, we could, like, run a quick errand and then come home. But for the most part, they need to be with adults because they're just too young.
Libby Sinback:
And so there's a lot of care that's needed there.
Genevieve King:
And the thing is, like, when, when.
Libby Sinback:
I'm friends with other parents who are in the same boat, there's a lot of care that everybody's doing all the time. And so everybody. And so you'd think that there would be this way to, like, split that up, to share, to be like, I'll take your kids, you take mine. And I, and I know families that do that, even, like, monogamous families that do that. But I just keep thinking about, like, not just structural barriers, but, like, actual capacity barriers to provide care to each other, you know? And I guess, do you ever run into that where it's like, someone in your network needs help or need support? Maybe they've got a health issue or maybe they need childcare, or maybe they have a family member who is, you know, ill or something, and there is, like, a high level need of care or support, and, like, finding the capacity to do that is tricky. Do you ever run into stuff like that? Like, and how you handle it?
Genevieve King:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, we live in an exhausting world, and, like, that goes, you know, and so, like, I think even sometimes having enough energy for ourselves and for our most interdependent relationships can be daunting. So, yeah, I think even if somebody we care about has a need, if we don't have the ability or capacity to fulfill that, then we say that. Right. But at the same time, I think, is there a willingness to brainstorm as friends, as teammates, as partners, like, brainstorm what solution there could be? Could we imagine something that might be different? Could we work toward that? So I don't have children, but I have experienced with different house sitting and pet sitting and things of that nature, different kinds of logistical and day to day care. Hey, can your friend of a friend help me out this weekend? And how can I support them in return? Get to know them more? And so. But I think assessing, like, yeah, making sure our cup feels full.
Genevieve King:
But I really think that, you know, being part of a community also means accepting help. And, you know, I don't want to always be giving. I don't think people should always be giving. Like, it means receiving as well.
Libby Sinback:
Wait, I want to say that back to you because I think that's a really important thing you just said there, that being part of a community means except accepting help. And I think that's so important because I think capacity fluctuates. Right? Like, sometimes I have more energy. Sometimes I have more time. Sometimes I have less energy. Sometimes I have less time. And being able to give when you can and then being able to receive when you can't, it's tricky. Right? Like, even, like, as you were saying, like, being part of a community means accepting help, accepting support, being on the receiving end when you need it.
Libby Sinback:
I think that's a place where a lot of people struggle.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. And it can. And I absolutely have been there. I've been in, like, I've had long periods of my life, especially when I left that high control community where I was like, I don't trust anybody, that it's going to get done wrong. It's going to be. There's an ulterior motive.
Libby Sinback:
Like, there was, like, this whole arc.
Genevieve King:
Of hyper independence as means of survival, as a trauma response kind of deal.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Genevieve King:
And so, yeah. So especially, I remember when I was, like, going through a really intense mental health issue. I have a panic disorder. And so I was like, I never would let anyone see me have panic attacks because it was very much like, this cannot be. This is something. I go alone into a corner, and I deal with it, and I come out and I'm fresh.
Libby Sinback:
I can't. I can't be out of control around other people. Right. Because that feels. That totally makes sense. Yeah.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. And one of my partners was like, this was a long time ago. This may be nine years ago. One of my partners, I was starting to feel panic, and I asked them to leave, and they just sort of sat there, and they're like, I wouldn't like how I feel for the rest of the night if I just walked out on you right now. Don't do that to me. And push me away right now. It was so eye opening. It was so beautiful, and.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. And I really realized how trying to do things all on my own also prevented people from feeling close to me, prevented them from the ability to, like, feel how good it is to give. And it kept me feeling really low capacity because I was just getting through it, trying to pull myself up, you know, out of. Out of the water into my own lifeboat. You know, it's like, this is so unnecessary, and now I have less to give others as well. So that was a very big turning point.
Libby Sinback:
Well, I want to celebrate your partner for, like, saying, not you need this, but, like, I need this. Like, this is actually for. To let me be here for you is actually for me, because I would feel horrible about myself and about, like, us if I just left you. So it's, like, honoring that. Like, that's what. What he needed, you know, rather than making it about you. That was really beautiful. But I just also want to name, like, what you're saying is, I think what a lot of people feel that, like, receiving feels really vulnerable and can feel unsafe, because how many times has someone given something to us and we.
Libby Sinback:
And we've accepted it? But then there were strings that they. That they did not communicate ahead of time. There was some, like, they gave some kind of gift, whether it was their time or their energy or their money or their. Or an actual tangible object of some kind. And then there was some expectation attached, and it can feel really terrible to be like, no, I didn't agree to that, and just, like, not give back. And it sounds like your past experience was that there were no gifts that were given that didn't have an expectation of control attached to them. And so, of course, it was like, so how brave of you to be willing to go, okay, I'm going to trust this person. I'm going to trust their word.
Libby Sinback:
And that this is really about them. And it's not that they're going to be expecting something back from me to be here for me in this moment. Like, that's hard.
Genevieve King:
Yeah, I mean, and I think it's took the time that it took to be willing to trust. Like, I think we gotta still be. I'm still for people being self protective. If they don't know a person well enough. Like, okay, if they haven't, if you haven't seen them actually mean that yet, then that is a bit of a leap of faith. And so I'm very like, consider your own risk reward when it comes to that, you know? And I was willing to take that leap of faith because we had been together for, you know, the better part of a year, I think, at that point. And that's when I was ready to let them into that space. But what was cool about that is I only needed two or three relationships that I felt that level of willingness to be totally open with before it got easier everywhere.
Genevieve King:
Because if it's easier to be not okay in the most intimate of environments, then it was kind of easier to be a version of not okay on a first date. That was my experience as well. I felt a little bit more insulated from other people fumbling it or other people having ulterior motives or passive aggressive, whatever, whatever. Because I felt like at the end of the day, there is this core of people that I can trust. And so I got a little bit less hyper independent in lower stakes situations.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and what I think there too is if you have enough people who you can trust, then when it goes poorly, it's not like, oh, I can't trust anyone. Like, you still have all the data that, like, I can trust some people, but I can't trust everyone. Which is true. And I think that's an important thing to, like, acknowledge, is that receiving is a vulnerable act. And there are some people you shouldn't receive from because they will use it to manipulate you or harm you or gain access to you in a way, or feel entitled to access to you in a way that you didn't agree to or don't want. Another thought that I'm having here, though, just as we're talking about receiving, because I do think for a lot of people, like, learning to receive help is an important part of connecting to community, and a lot of people do have that hyper independence. I shouldn't need help. I shouldn't need anybody.
Libby Sinback:
And I think that shows up a lot with. With parenting, actually. And there's even a fair amount of shaming around that, like, if you do need help, if you do want extra support, you're not a good enough parent. And. But, like, on the flip side, you know, one thing that I remember that I ran into when I was part of a more interconnected community was that there were some people who would just take a lot. Like, that would just take a lot of space, take a lot of energy, take a lot of emotional processing. And so there was. There were these imbalances that would show up where, like, some people would give a lot and not take a lot, and then there would be some people who would take a lot and not give a lot.
Libby Sinback:
And I guess I'm wondering if you ever had that experience where there's someone in your space who is doing a lot of taking without an awareness of, like, how that's impacting the overall community capacity.
Genevieve King:
Yeah, I mean, I think that has been my experience. That was an experience through so much of my life. I remember when I was, like, five or something, this girl that I had invited over to play barbies. Like, she somehow talked me into giving her all of my barbies. And she's, like, walking out the front door, and my mom's like, excuse me, where are you going with all of that? And she's like, oh, no. You know, she said I could take them. And so that, I think, is a very old thing that I've had good reason to internalize that people can be incredibly manipulative and self focused and exploitative, which is why I really keep an eye on motives and incentives and watching how a person behaves in their day to day life. If, you know, when I worked in a business that had, like, a sales component to it, there were salespeople that I was like, I see you.
Genevieve King:
I see you that you're very charming and charismatic, and I will enjoy having a drink with you after work. But I don't trust you to be in community with me because I see you, like, kind of screwing over the person next to you so that you can get ahead. And so if a person operates that way in any area of their life, even if they haven't done it to me, I keep my guard a little up around them and only so close.
Libby Sinback:
Well, but I'm even thinking of people who, like, I definitely, for sure there are people who are like. Like, I had this friend of mine. I don't think it was conscious with her. I don't think she was, like, intentionally trying to screw people over. But, like, any time we would be somewhere she would, like, be at the front of the line, or she would be like, I got to make sure I get my needs met. I got to make sure I get mine. I want to make sure that I get enough food at the table or whatever have you. Right? And one time where it was just so, like, I was so cognizant of it was that we were out a bunch of families.
Libby Sinback:
We were all together with our kids, and I had little kids, she had little kids, and we were at the ice cream place once. I'm standing there in line at the ice cream place, and she kind of, like, we were all going there together, and it was her idea to go. She goes right to the front of the line. She's got her kids with her, and then she's just standing there, and she doesn't know what she wants, and she just going. And meanwhile, I'm staying there with, like, a baby and a two year old, or maybe, like, I think they were maybe one and three, but I've got, like, two little, little kids, and I'm like, I was like, could you, like, either, like, decide what you want or.
Genevieve King:
Get out of the way?
Libby Sinback:
Because, like, I know what I want. And also, I'm dealing with, like, way younger kids here. And it was just, it was just this really funny moment where I was like, you just have no idea because you're so self focused. And, and I've been there, too. I'm an only child, so there are, like, it is also cringey for me because I can be that way, like, if I'm not watching it, because I'm very conscious and aware of what I want and what I don't want. And I have to be aware that, like, oh, I'm not the only person in the room, you know? And so I'm just even thinking about people who can show up to a space and just not necessarily be aware that it's a shared space, and they'll just kind of take what they need but not recognize that that's a shared pot of whatever and not recognize, oh, I need to put back into that, you know, that I have to keep this nice for everybody, not just take what I need from it. And that's a thing that I ran into a lot in the polyamory communities that I've been a part of, is people, like, really willing to take what they need from it, but then not necessarily show up and put into it. And so, like, kind of the opposite of what we were just talking about.
Libby Sinback:
About, like, people who just can't receive. These are folks who are like, I'll get what I need, but, like, I don't understand the work that goes into, like, maintaining the shared space. And I guess I'm wondering if you run into that.
Genevieve King:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really related. It's probably why the thought of us, of the salespeople came to mind. Because in, like, we're kind of taught. Especially, like, I think depending on your. In the US, depending on your class, depending on your race, even, like, you're taught to be a bit more, like, get yours. Like, dog eat dog. I'm going to get paid, you know, I'm going to get mine. And I think that's how that can show up in that, like, ice cream anecdote of just like, I need to get mine.
Genevieve King:
You know, elbowing your way past your fellow person. And so that is antithetical to community. I don't, I don't want to be with, like, kind of close with someone who's not at least curious as to why they do it. Like, we can fall back into default programming. I was taught to be that way explicitly. My dad taught me, like, oh, you're getting off the airport. So here's how you, you're getting off the airplane. Here's how you can, like, basically shove your way to the front and not have to wait as long.
Genevieve King:
He literally, like, tried to give me lessons as a child. And so this is something that I hear you in terms of, like, you spot it, you got it. Kind of like, oh, I see this. And that's so cringey. And I want to, I think it matters what happens when you bring it to their attention. And so if somebody does something like that, like, when I was doing things like that in polyamory and just making sure that I got care from my partner, I don't care how it makes your other partner feel. You take care of me now, you know?
Libby Sinback:
Right. Well, and that shows up all the time in polyamory, I think, where, like, there are two people who have need or maybe more than two people who have need, and there's that hinge partner maybe in the middle, and, like, there's this, like, tug of war happening rather than understanding. Hey, like, this is an ecology. Like, you getting your needs met benefits me and my, my needs getting met benefits you. And also there's this additional person in the mix who also matters. And, like, is not just like a need fulfilling robot, you know, like, they also and have needs and care that they might need. And in those dynamics, sometimes you have that person in that middle spot, not receiving what they need and not speaking up for their own need. It's such a tough dynamic.
Libby Sinback:
And what I want to do sometimes with folks, when I see them in that situation, just kind of grab them and change their head around so that I can have them see, this is an ecology. They're all connected here. Is there a way you could make way for a moment just recognizing that your turn will come? Like, maybe you're just not first in line right now because there's someone behind you who needs to be first right now. And it's not because they're more important. It's not because they're higher on the food chain. It's just like, sometimes it's not your turn.
Genevieve King:
Yeah, I mean, and that's kind of why I pay attention to what someone does when it's named, hey, are you aware of how that made me feel? Like, hey, what are you doing? Are they scared? They're like, but what if I don't get my needs met? Is it coming from a place of fear? I empathize with that. Can we redirect that to getting your needs met in a way that doesn't suck for other people? But there definitely are people who are like, this feels good, I don't care, you know, so I don't owe them anything. And so if they just double down, then I really keep my distance. For me, when it was named for me, like, hey, you know, early days, like twelve years ago, basically I would like, call or text a partner on a date because I'm struggling and because they're on a date. And so I'm like, no, you need to, as my partner, take care of me right now. And that was really strongly pushed back on and I'm grateful for that. And I was like, oh, oh. Like, it literally hadn't occurred to me because I had so much work to do still.
Genevieve King:
And it didn't occur to me that, like, it's not cool to try and get my needs met through force at someone else's expense. And can I instead be vulnerable and ask, hey, I need care, you know, how can I get care without hurting anyone in the process? So it can be unlearned and redirected, but there needs to be that desire and that, like, earnest willingness to learn a different way of going about things. And you can't make somebody want to be different. So I really pay attention to, yeah. Do they have curiosity and willingness to evolve?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Like, you're naming for me, like, a reason why I exited a part of a community that I was a part of. It's a funny story. I mean, it's not. It's funny now. It wasn't funny at the time. So I was part of this parent group. There were, like, seven different families.
Libby Sinback:
Maybe there were eight. I don't know. But there was. There were. We were all families. We all were parents. We all had young kids. So, you know, anywhere from mine were some of the youngest, but anywhere from, like, one years old to, like, ten years old, like, that range, and we.
Libby Sinback:
It was really beautiful. Like, I had so much hope for this community because we were all setting up play dates, like, once a week, every Sunday. Basically, we'd go to someone's house. We'd all bring our kids. Someone would either cook dinner or order food, and we'd all just hang out and eat, and our kids would play together, and you'd think that would be really beautiful, right? Like, and we. We did, like, an Easter egg hunt together. Like, somebody organized that at their house and just had all the kids out to, like, Easter egg hunt in their backyard. And I just like, oh, my God, this is it.
Libby Sinback:
Like, this is the dream. Like, we built this beautiful polycule, and we're all connected, and we're all doing stuff together. But then what happened was the parents who had, like, slightly older kids who were slightly more independent would just let their kids run around and wouldn't, like, do anything. Like, wouldn't. Wouldn't, like, check to make sure that they were behaving and wouldn't do anything to kind of prevent their play, which might be a little rougher from harming or bumping up against the littler kids who were still figuring out how to walk or figuring out how to navigate, sort of in a more basic way. And so those of us who had younger kids, we were kind of hovering with our kids more, or we'd have to trade off, like, with drew and I, we'd have to trade off who was going to kind of hover with the kids and who'd get to socialize with the grownups. And at one point, I was kind of talking to some other parents who had kids on the younger side, and I was like, does it feel kind of crummy that, like, we're the ones always hovering near our younger kids? The older kids just kind of run wild, and they do whatever they want, and, like, sometimes they're doing stuff that we actually have to parent them, too. Like, we have to say, hey, like, you know, that's not cool, or don't hit, or, like, watch out for this younger one.
Libby Sinback:
And so what? And so I brought this up, and I brought it up in, like, what I thought was a pretty gentle way, which I said, hey, I just want to name as the parent of some of the younger kids. I don't get to get as much of the social time as some of you all who have older kids. And would some of you all be willing to hang out with me while I'm monitoring my kids and your kids? And I didn't. I didn't do it in a shamy way, and I didn't do it in a. Hey, you need to take a turn. Even though one of my friends and I, we had talked about, like, having, like, a sign up sheet and having people, like, take shifts, you know, so that it felt more fair. But I was like, you know, I'm okay if just, like. Like, a group of parents just decided to hang out with me while I was kind of also with kids.
Libby Sinback:
And so I just made the request. And we were in a slack group where we were all communicating this in a slack chat, and the whole group got. Nobody said anything. And then later, back channel, I got a message from one of the other parents who also had a younger kid, and she said, libby, why did you have to do that? Why did you have to bring that up? Why did you have to stir shit?
Genevieve King:
What?
Libby Sinback:
And I was like, yeah, I know. And I internalized it too. I was like, oh, what did I do? Oh, my God. Did I do something wrong? But, like, you know, in retrospect, now I'm able to say I wasn't shaming anybody. I wasn't being demanding. She was just saying, hey, like, this is a way that this isn't working for me, and could I have some help, you know? And the response was, how dare you?
Genevieve King:
Wow.
Libby Sinback:
How dare you ruin our good time? We're having such a great time, just chilling and drinking and whatever in our adult space, and now you're asking us to do something different. And I was just like, now maybe they read into it, you know? I mean, I guess that must have been part of what happened, was they read into it. Like, they read into shaming, or they read into the fact that I was disgruntled about it or whatever, because I was, you know, but, like, there was, like, no compassion and nothing changed. And then that was sort of the beginning of the end of my connection with that group was because, you know, I would be the person to be like, hey, like, this doesn't feel fair. And I would just like this to feel more like, so that I can enjoy it as much as you're enjoying it.
Genevieve King:
Yep.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. I mean, I'm really sorry that that happened to you. It's such a reveal of character when, like, you present, hey, I'm kind of hurting, and someone's like, well, how dare you ask me to do something different? You know? It's not possible. I think if that's somebody's mentality and they're like, again, I'm going to get mine doubling down, then that's good to know. It's not always an option of who is in our proximity. Right. But if there is the option to choose who we, you know, organize things with, I try to really. Yeah.
Genevieve King:
Keep an eye on that and keep an eye on, like, do they care when something they do or don't do is hurting someone? You know, that that's a foundational need if we're going to give and receive and have a network of care.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, how can this work for everybody? And then if there's a class, which, I mean, I get it. Like, I get the clash there. Like, the clash was like, I don't want to hang around with my. This is, like, the time that I get a break from my kids. Of course I don't want to do more of that right now. Like, I get that part. But then is there a way that we could, like, talk about it, you know, and, like, share both sides of the equation so that, like, everybody feels like they matter instead of it just being like.
Libby Sinback:
Like I was saying, like, how dare you, like, even bring this up? Like, how dare you rock the boat here? This is so great. Why would you want to shake this up? Well, I was like, well, it's great for you, but I feel so unequal in it, you know? And, yeah, I mean, so, again, kind of going back to that ecological mentality of, like, everybody matters and, you know, I don't think that, like, me leaving ruined the group, but I have noticed, kind of observing from afar, that that group has slowly disintegrated.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. I mean, if a group is functioning or a polycule or anything is functioning because of, like, somebody being subjugated, basically. Like, if you were taking on the brunt of that work and that allowed them to not have to work ever in that space, you removing yourself, because you're like, this sucks. Which is fair and good, and I'm glad you're taking care of yourself. That will make it fall apart, because somebody's got to do it, right?
Libby Sinback:
Well, it wasn't just me. There were a lot of other people who were in that bucket. Like, there was really a clear divide. Like, they were, like, the parents of the younger kids, and there were, like, four of us where we really had to hover. And, you know, sometimes we would trade off with each other. I'd be like, okay, I'll hover. You can go. You know, I would even say to, like, somebody, like, not my spouse, but, like, just, like, I'll hover and I'll hover.
Libby Sinback:
I'll watch your kid, too. But the parents of the older kids just wouldn't. Wouldn't pitch in. But, but, yeah, like, it. That was a tough time. That was a tough time. And I do think, though, that because that was the overall, like, there was. There was lip service paid to, were all in this together.
Libby Sinback:
But then when rubber was hitting the road, there were a lot of people in that group who are like, only when it works for me are we in this together. And the thing is, I think that because we're coming from this individualistic culture and with a lot of individualistic structures, there is some serious unlearning that has to happen in order for us to make these communities really work in a functional in the way that we want them to without it over relying on some people who are more givers and some people who are more takers. And again, I don't want to just frame it like that, because, again, like, I'm an only child. Like, I do know how to get mine, so to speak. But I've tried to unlearn that within myself so that I am, like, thinking more holistically. I don't know. Do you have any tools for people who are like, I want to build community. I want to get out of my individualistic mindset.
Libby Sinback:
How do, like, if I was wanting to present those to people, people who are, like, wanting to unlearn that and build community, like, where would you say they would start?
Genevieve King:
I would start with challenging binary thinking. And by that, I mean, like, it can be so, like, what you're describing with what happened to you, you saying, hey, can I get this need met? And them seeing like that as well. If you get this met, then I am now burdened. So therefore, no, there's two options.
Libby Sinback:
Either you I lose or you lose.
Genevieve King:
Exactly.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Genevieve King:
And, like, that's not how it has to be, you know? But so often, especially in high stress situations, if they are also burned out and they're like, I can't possibly imagine giving more. I'm already stressed. Okay, let's factor that into the brainstorm. Can this please be a brainstorm? Not a yes, no. You know, configuration and. Yeah. So I see people really isolate and alienating each other, and I've been guilty of this in the past, could easily fall back into it if I'm having, like, a bad season of time where it's like, oh, no, no, no, don't ask me to change. I can't.
Genevieve King:
I'm barely holding it together. This is generous, giving benefit to doubt that that's the motivation. But just saying, like, no, if you get something, that means it's a zero sum game. That means I lose something. And so this idea, this attitude of all or nothing, your success means my failure, that is going to keep us separated. So I just say to people, like, if you notice that, just notice it, just flag it, just observe it. Like, when do you notice it? Is it not an issue if you're figuring out something small that doesn't matter, like figuring out where to go to dinner? You want to stay in and eat, they want to go out to eat. Okay.
Genevieve King:
I mean, could we cook something? Is there a third or a fourth or a fifth answer? Right? Like, it's often easier and more accessible to brainstorm when it doesn't have big stakes. But if it's like, well, I want to go on this date with someone, well, I'm having a panic attack, you know?
Libby Sinback:
Okay.
Genevieve King:
You know, can I love on you before the date? Like, who in your support network can you text tonight? Like, can I brainstorm with you on how you get care? Can I agree on after my date, how I can love on you? What you want to know what you don't like? There's so much complexity that it doesn't have to be, either you stay home and take care of me, or you abandon me and go on the date. Right? But when you're stressed, it seems like there's two answers. I get mine or you get yours, you know? And so that is really us versus each other, which is the opposite of coming together as a team. Us versus the stressors, us versus the problems. Yeah. Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
I love that you named that. When we're stressed, we're more likely to see it that way. And I think that's so true because we're more in our survival brain, right. We're in the brain that says, either I win or you win. And I need to either win or I need to, like, protect myself from losing. You know, is kind of how I frame it. Either I'm gonna fight or I'm going to run away and shut down and close off either one is basically, I need to protect myself from you versus, like you said, kind of us versus the problem. Like, you have to be in a different brain state to get to that place, I think, a lot of the time.
Libby Sinback:
And if you're not noticing, like you said, not able to notice and observe yourself in that stress state, then you can just kind of get locked in there, I think. And then the other piece that I heard you say that I would just kind of amplify is like, recognizing when there's a perception of scarcity. Because sometimes scarcity is, like, real, you know, like, there actually is only so much time in a day or in the case of, like, this, you know, this parenting thing that I was a part of. And, you know, there was a scarce amount of time to socialize while your kids are playing with other kids. Like, that was a scarce resource. It was one day a week, and it was so many hours in that day. And of course, like, it makes sense that you'd want as much of it as you could get. And when you are going and being in the kitty room or whatever it is, like, yeah, you're getting less.
Libby Sinback:
It's real. But when you think about it. But are there ways to think about that more expansively? Like, maybe I could get something out of doing this with other parents there. Like, maybe it wouldn't feel so, such a bummer if there were more parents kind of hanging out in that space with me and maybe I could get parenting dips or, you know, like, how could we make it feel like instead of this scarce resource where people are just trying to get what they can get, and if they don't get it, then they lose to, how can we expand this? How can we make this more expansive so that it's not like either I leave you like you were using that example and abandon you, but, like, how can I show you that I have an expansive amount of care to offer? But it's not just tied to this. Either I leave you and I don't care, or I stay and I'm bugging out on my other partner.
Genevieve King:
Yeah, I mean, I think it can help to understand the reason. Like, what is the worst case scenario? You know, if somebody in my example is saying, like, I'm panicked, I need support, my best idea is I get that from you, and you don't go on a date and you take care of me on a nut. Okay, well, if the underlying what's under the request. Okay, so that's the request that might be an explicit yes no, but it doesn't have to mean that you still don't get the need met, you know, so what is the need? You need support, you want companionship, you want reassurances, you want relaxation. Right? Okay. Can we think about all of the different shapes that could take, you know, and I think in the long run, like, can we zoom out and see it as an ebb and flow, flow of time and resources and energy and that some days we are a bit more tired, we are giving a bit more, and that that can, with agreements, even out where we will get our need met tomorrow or next week, or we take turns doing the thing and, yeah, just not really seeing it as such an emergency. This has to be this way. Right? I think most people who wind up doing controlling things or behaving in really selfish ways, of course there are people who are just at their core incapable of seeing other people, you know, but I think most of the time what I see is people not trusting that they will have all their needs met.
Genevieve King:
I don't. I don't trust that I'm going to be okay if I accommodate you. And so I'm not going to. Rather than I wonder how I could get my need met in a way that you also get yours, you know, on average, long term. And so, yeah, that willingness to collaborate.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and another part in there too, I think of being proactive. Like, of course, in the moment when you're having a panic attack and you weren't expecting it, it does feel in your body like an emergency. But when I think about, I mean, what I advise my clients to do often is instead of waiting for the moment and just hoping it goes, okay, like, be proactive. Like, how could I think ahead, okay, last time, this is what happened, and this was hard. Could we proactively create a scenario where this could go better? You know, and then I'm not like grasping at a request, and then the request is like this high stakes, either I get it or I don't. But instead we can be in that collaborative problem solving place. And when it doesn't feel like an emergency, when we have access to the part of our brain that's able to go, hmm, I can see my side and I can see your side, and I can see this other person's side, and I can see the group need and I can see all of it because I have more of my brain structures that are capable of integrating complexity on board. And then you've inoculated yourself against those feelings of emergency that are happening in the moment.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Genevieve King:
And I think another aspect of this, especially in terms of polyamory, is that if the feeling of scarcity we're having is related to a person, that person is not just a benign resource. You know, like, it's not, quote unquote, fair for me to get 50% of their time and for the other person to get 50% of their time, that that takes away the person in the middle's ability to decide what they want to do. And maybe they only want to spend 10% of their time with you, and that hurts because you're not on the same page. But, you know, a lot of times, people will confuse justice or equality or balance with getting the same stuff. But if the stuff is a person, you know, like, that's, it's, that's not. Don't, don't take away their choice in the matter, you know? And so, like, and on the inverse as well, you know, I had an experience where I was having a really hard time, and a partner decided to not go on a date. Like, that was their decision. And I really struggled with that because I'm like, no, I don't want to control you.
Genevieve King:
I don't want to tell you to do that. But, you know, they were, you know, my dad had just died, and they were a primary emotional support for me, and they could kind of take it or leave it with this date. You know, they were, like, independent of me. And so I was really struggling because my reserves were so low from dealing with everything else that I was like, oh, this stress. Oh, my God, what am I going to do? And they were like, okay, I'm just not going to go. I don't want to. As your support person now add to the things that we're coping with. If I could take it or leave it.
Genevieve King:
And so that also, in the spirit of, like, receiving care, I had to let go of, like, this idea that I had the power to make my partner do anything. Like, no, they decided, right.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and that's that. To kind of loop back to your earlier example of, of that time when your partner said, like, I don't want to leave you under these circumstances, understanding, like, when, when you're perceiving a person as a resource instead of as a person, not recognizing that they have their own needs and their own desires and their own priorities and their own values, and if they're choosing to let go of one thing in favor of another thing that may not have anything to. To do with either of those people or those things or what they've said or what they've demanded or whatever, it's probably hopefully more internal to the person and what's important to them. And if it's not, they probably need to do some inner work about figuring out what is important to them. Like, I'm even thinking about, like, the way that my partnership works with my spouse where, like, he really understands that. Like, me being able, like, right now I'm doing this recording from in DC where my long distance partner lives and, like, leaving my husband home with his, with our two kids for four days. And, and, you know, he's not resentful of that. He's not burdened by that.
Libby Sinback:
He recognizes, like, me getting time with this partner is nourishing for me and I am part of his well being, too. And so me being well nourished and getting the connection needs that I have with this partner met support him, our kids, our other partner, my mom, it's all connected. And so it's not zero sum at all. And in fact, if I allowed myself to get overly depleted by our kids and I get short tempered, I don't sleep as well. I'm like, so it's like recognizing, oh, like, it's not them or me, it's. We all matter with each other.
Genevieve King:
Yeah. And I think that's a great example of, like, can we look at the overall picture? Is everybody getting their needs met? And that if your spouse agrees, I'll do a little bit more heavy lifting this weekend. Please go have fun. I want that for you. That's beautiful. And I imagine it's also rooted in trust that that's not going to be everyday imbalance and that.
Libby Sinback:
Right?
Genevieve King:
Yeah. When there's need on that end that you'll step up, you know, like, exactly.
Libby Sinback:
Like, we take turns. Absolutely, we take turns. And I think that that's the other element in there that I guess that would be important in creating community and being able to share the load and take turn. Is that a. That knowledge, that trust, that. Okay, if I give here, it's not going to be all the time. Like, I'm not always going to be the one giving in. It's not always going to be on me to be flexing.
Libby Sinback:
There are going to be times that other people flex for me and I have to be willing to allow that, you know, like going back to the, like, I have to be willing to allow my turn to happen so that I don't grow resentful or so that I don't create this power dynamic where I'm always giving and other people are always getting and that kind of thing. So I feel like we've come full circle now. Yeah, I'd love to just, like, wrap the conversation, I think, from here. But before I go, I would love for you to just tell people how to find you. And if they want more of your work or if they're, like, inspired and they want to work with you, like, how can they connect?
Genevieve King:
Sure. Well, I'm Genevieve king. I go by chillpolyamory on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube. TikTok and Instagram are where I do short form videos and resources. I do video essays on YouTube. I also do long form video essays on polyamory and share my personal stories and do live chats on patreon.com chillpolyamory. So you get a lot of bonus goodies. And, yeah, if you want to chat one on one, I'm available for video calls and email pen pals.
Genevieve King:
You can learn more at chillpolyamory.com
Libby Sinback:
Awesome. Well, Genevieve, thanks so much for sharing this time with me and having this conversation.
Genevieve King:
I appreciate it.
